Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby middleway on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:36 am

That's a kind of "flamboyant - high risk, high reward" BJJ attack, particularly in competition, but we usually find the hip (iliac crest) with the foot. I see in Sambo he's going for the thigh - that's quite different. It would be interesting to explore the differences.


This is the same way Caio Terra does this armbar. basically pulling guard on the wrong side and kicking out the thigh.

I have actually played with this quite alot and when the attack to the thigh is strong its pretty hard to back away from.

(sorry to derail the thread )

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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby RobP3 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:23 am

GrahamB wrote:
How are you dealing with the jacket collar/sleeve grips translating this to Systema, Rob?

That's a kind of "flamboyant - high risk, high reward" BJJ attack, particularly in competition, but we usually find the hip (iliac crest) with the foot. I see in Sambo he's going for the thigh - that's quite different. It would be interesting to explore the differences. I think he's saying it makes the guy lean more, but I can also see how it could make the technique less effective as you can move your thigh backwards to escape it (perhaps coupled with brushing their foot off your thigh with the left hand) better than you can move the hip backwards. When the foot is on the hip it's a lot more 'sticky'. Probably worth experimenting with both.

The other difference with the Russian approach is blocking the far leg - the Brazilian approach is usually to underhook the near leg.


We train in "regular" clothes for the most part, so half the year guys are wearing jackets or sweatshirts which can be grabbed. A t shirt can be worked, with some adaptation, but of course clothing grips are easier on more "chunky" items. We put the thigh move in more as a kick, if it's non-telegraphed it's effective. I'm guessing the guy here is breaking it down a little more for teaching purpose, the actual use can be a bit more lively. But yet, hip is good too
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:19 am

The osoto gari technique isn't in brush knee.... it's in repulse monkey twist step. repulse monkey twist step is where the pulling hand is on opposite side to the leg stepping back (most Yang styles don't have this move). The big clue is in how the legs move; the leg sweeps/ steps backward. In brush knee you step forward, how can it possibly map onto osoto gari - well, it doesn't. Not really, but that's never stopped people making this stuff up as they go along..

Maarten, just learn the English names.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:47 am

simply because, as middleway pointed out, with a higher level of abstraction, you can understand more throws and use the opportunity when it arises without any catalog of 100 throws that are all variations. the akiyama throw has the leg reap and pushing arm without the pulling arm. the video I posted is not only missing the legs, they are reversed. but it doesn't matter too much. they are very similar and are all "arc" throws. you combine cai, an, kao, and 5 steppings, in slightly different ways to produce a large variety of moves that still use the same principles. I don't know. it's easier for me to understand and "feel" the level of abstraction. for others, a giant detailed list is better.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:30 am

That's all besides the point really. That approach is a fine one that middleway points out, I use it myself for standing grappling. But, at the same time some movements map others don't (to taiji form movements/postures). just saying. Taiji movements can be fairly similar at times and can have different ways to map them. eg. for striking, shuai and chinna. But I look for the gross force directions at a bare minimum. Brush knee and osoto gari just don't map, and are a different gross body movement.

if you want to practice your 'osoto gari', don't do brush knee !
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:14 am

Ah I think I follow you, yeah. Sorry, we're sort of talking past each other. It seems to be another one of those horrible taiji as rorschach test things. I don't see brush knee as having anything to do with striking as almost everyone else says. However, for throws, I'm probably overly abstracting the ideas in brush knee, so maybe I shouldn't say brush knee literally. Brush knee for me afaik is similar to the throw in that vid I posted earlier, except his feet were reversed.

Any throw that is more or less combining: one pull/pluck, one push (steering wheel sometimes), and one hip or leg in the way regardless of reap or not, and regardless of which way you both face, goes into the same category for me. Osoto gari has emphasis on reaping. The key for me in brush knee is more about the pulldown. It's essentially the best kuzushi from a judo pov. You don't need all 3 "energies"/levers all the time, but it's better if you do. These are all in the same very general movement category for me as opposed to diagonal fly or twisting type throws or sacrifice throws, etc. So an arm bar type throw/takedown (could be with the brush knee movement) is similar. A wrist lock type throw is similar for me. Tai otoshi is similar for me. The details are very different.

In this same abstract sense, diagonal fly and part wild horse's mane are essentially the same for me. I don't mean to discount the importance of details. It's just easier for me as a student to have this level of abstraction/categorization. I can "get" a new throw a little faster because of understanding the general leverage.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:18 am

Is it not funny that with taiji everything is talked about in the abstract. With any other martial art or most martial arts there is no abstract only the reality.

Taiji is now at the point where people have to use other people practicing other Arts to somehow demonstrate what taiji is said to be doing but never shown doing
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby robert on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:23 am

marvin8 wrote:Here is what some people refer to as diagonal fly. But, Lyoto Machida doesn't call it tai chi. Different styles are going to have similar techniques:
Image

That's popular in taiji. You see it dan bian (single whip) and xie xing (walking obliquely) as well.

Some xie xing applications
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:39 am

I was thinking a similar thing
However it is not tai chi that is abstract it is people with not a lot of knowledge writing on tai chi
I can think of a lot of throws in the basic form ,more in the San shou,good ones in Ta lu and many in the weapon forms
I was taught the broadsword empty handed as Chinna and throwing form.
It just seems to me that instead of people searching out good teachers and looking deeply within their own training
They take the easy way out and find less sofisticated arts to fill out their training
Nothing wrong with that but just don't call it tai chi
Allow it to have its rightful heritage
One of the great pleasures of my training was my teacher naming where every facet he taught me and who had passed it to him
He would say ,my footwork came from chan etc.
There are a number of people on here who talk about tai chi for instance only to highlight that some other art they do is better,when you look at their tai chi you can see it is quite crude and unresolved
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:40 am

cloudz wrote:The osoto gari technique isn't in brush knee.... it's in repulse monkey twist step. repulse monkey twist step is where the pulling hand is on opposite side to the leg stepping back (most Yang styles don't have this move). The big clue is in how the legs move; the leg sweeps/ steps backward. In brush knee you step forward, how can it possibly map onto osoto gari - well, it doesn't. Not really, but that's never stopped people making this stuff up as they go along..

Maarten, just learn the English names.

Wouldn't you say that using a Japanese name and telling me to learn English names in one post is setting double standards???
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:43 am

The above clip came up after I started writing
Here is an example of someone deep in his art showing how it works
Well done Blue
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:49 am

windwalker wrote:Is it not funny that with taiji everything is talked about in the abstract. With any other martial art or most martial arts there is no abstract only the reality.

Taiji is now at the point where people have to use other people practicing other Arts to somehow demonstrate with taiji is said to be doing but never shown doing



Yep. Appealing to authority to validate opinions seems to be the M.O. Just post a clip or pic of some elite athlete doing something that has nothing whatever to do with what most anyone else is capable of or will ever have the opportunity to actually apply. Drives me crazy...always has.

Lots of topics on RSF seem to be on some sort of weird loop. Kind of cool, though, to see how peoples' thoughts, opinions and practice have evolved over the years. And others whose tune hasn't changed a single note.

Anyway, Abstract is the way of tai chi. 'Apps' have always been incidental to the movement in the tai chi I've trained. I never learned a single application to anything in the form from the 3 teachers I trained with, and have never 'taught' 'apps' to any one who's trained with me.

To illustrate the looping topics thing, here's some stuff I wrote in a thread back in 2009 that addresses the issues you raised above:

I've always thought that IMA was about what the person can do now, immediately, with the tools and abilities they presently posses - without working toward a horizon they will never reach. Seems like lots of tie chee folks in particular, don't like things to be simple and immediately effective. They want mysticism and 'hi-level' crap that only a 'master' can show. I call it trick or treat. If you keep people focused on the trick, they always miss the treat. That's been my experience here anyway - with more than a few tie chee dudes. Keeps things light and entertaining, though


And from the same thread regards throwing (An And Sealing The Root):

Why not pretend you're gonna try lifting someone? Not their whole body, just their point(s) of contact. That way, you can find their center and dial in their preliminary movement/intent. Whether he has ahold of you or you have ahold of him doesn't matter. I was shown how the method is contained in Roll-back And Opening-move in a wrestling context because that was what I knew best at the time. It 'seals his root' long enough for you to step onto one of his feet, pinning it to the ground, and then follow through from Roll-back to Push


And just to play along with what you wrote about appealing to what people are doing in other arts to somehow demonstrate what tai chi is doing;

Brush-knee-twist-step is Tai-otoshi - NOT osoto gari ;D
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:08 am

GrahamB wrote:
Just to clarify a few things:

1. Nobody is making money from you clicking a link to Scott's blog. What is this "bait" you keep talking about?

2. Most people who write about martial arts on the Internet do it for free. I write my blog for free. It doesn't make any money. I do it because I want to. There are no ads on there making me money (Wordpress occasionally throws an ad up because thats the price you pay for getting free hosting, but I if somebody click it then none of that comes my way).

3. Occasionally I'll link to something I've been paid to write for another outlet, or to somebody else's blog that I like - so what?

4. You are still going on about me not showing you enough respect when you first joined EF (what - 10 years ago??) If you can't engage in a rational conversation without blowing up and calling everybody who doesn't agree with you "full of shit" then there will be no room for constructive conversation.

5. Most importantly, this all has nothing to do with Maartin's thread - how about we just stick to that instead. Like you said, I like the idea of stepping on people's feet. I was actually agreeing with you. I just didn't realise I was stepping on yours.


Fair enough, Graham.

I don't care whether any one here respects me, or not. That isn't what motivates me to join in the discussions and probably why I don't have a blog ;)

I posted that recounting to illustrate how far you are behind the curve and to typify how many of the ideas I've been repeating on some sort of weird loop for the past 15+ years are now becoming 'new info'. It's only a matter of time until people get on board with the Neutrality Principle.

Lots of folks don't agree with me, but I don't think they're necessarily full of shit. It was only you and that other guy. If you look at my profile, you'll see that you're actually my favorite martial artist. I wrote your name when that question became a feature of our profile info here, and I mean it. You've gone from irrational and Confucian to almost rational and Taoist, and you're challenging conventions and hierarchies that you used to defend whenever you and I clashed over ideas.

Sorry about your foot
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:20 pm

It's different to say

- abstract is helpful
- formlessness is a goal of an art
- I don't know the/an app

Most of the Rorschach test issues here and everywhere are likely due to the last problem, not the first two.
For example when we had that thread on fist under the elbow, no one agreed. Most people always think brush knee has to do with striking. it's not that other arts are "better", but they usually lack the ambiguity. Everyone around the world can know what osoto gari is for example.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:29 pm

everything wrote:- abstract is helpful.

"Abstract" is not enough. In order to throw your opponent, you will need to have "body method". This is the difference between TCMA guy and traffic cop. Can you develop the "body method" needed for throw in Taiji form solo training?

The body method for "靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze".



The body method for "切(Qie) - Front cut".

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