Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:37 pm

I would say yes from more limited experience but it's more interesting to hear from someone who has taught shuaijiao to many students.

Also you misunderstand/misquote me on the "abstract" idea. "Abstract" is "categorization" so if you show me one cut, I can more quickly understand another cut. I'm not talking about "formlessness" instead of specific techniques.
Last edited by everything on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:50 pm

"Abstract" is the opposite of the "detail". IMO, if we map "abstract" into application, there are just too many missing parts.

When you apply "切(Qie) - Front cut", the "hip rotation" that shift weight from one leg to another leg is important. You just don't train that in Taiji "brush knee", or "step back repulse monkey".

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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:53 pm

everything wrote:It's different to say

- abstract is helpful
- formlessness is a goal of an art
- I don't know the/an app

Most of the Rorschach test issues here and everywhere are likely due to the last problem, not the first two.
For example when we had that thread on fist under the elbow, no one agreed. Most people always think brush knee has to do with striking. it's not that other arts are "better", but they usually lack the ambiguity. Everyone around the world can know what osoto gari is for example.



Well, that's just it. A movement sequence like BKTS or FUE can be a throw or a punch or a punch or a throw or both at the same time.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:57 pm

I think one issue here is simply footwork. John's example of "front cut" shows the practitioner getting into position. In fact, most of the training was on the footwork, not what the arms were doing.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:07 pm

As long as you can control your opponent's "leading arm", the other arm may not function much. This is how important the "leading arm control" is in the throwing art.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:39 pm

BruceP wrote:Well, that's just it. A movement sequence like BKTS or FUE can be a throw or a punch or a punch or a throw or both at the same time.

BKTS is a strategy; defending against an incoming force by rolling back. Then, using that incoming force against an opponent to control or attack by pressing forward. This is considered one movement, that requires listening to an opponent’s energy and timing.

johnwang wrote:As long as you can control your opponent's "leading arm", the other arm may not function much. This is how important the "leading arm control" is in the throwing art.


However, this is technique oriented. It may be sufficient, when limited to throwing competition. However in self defense, one needs to deal with incoming punches and kicks. How does one enter the trapping range safely and prevent the opponent from moving out of position? This "detail" is not addressed in the video.

I know you have described in detail entry moves in other posts. However, I think I have some point/message in here somewhere. :)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:53 am

middleway wrote:
That's a kind of "flamboyant - high risk, high reward" BJJ attack, particularly in competition, but we usually find the hip (iliac crest) with the foot. I see in Sambo he's going for the thigh - that's quite different. It would be interesting to explore the differences.


This is the same way Caio Terra does this armbar. basically pulling guard on the wrong side and kicking out the thigh.

I have actually played with this quite alot and when the attack to the thigh is strong its pretty hard to back away from.

(sorry to derail the thread )



Caio is an absolute baby-faced assassin, so anything he does is cool with me :)

I'd actually say this was a third way - he's posting almost on the knee, to really push the leg backwards.

Interesting he said he used this to win many matches "when I was younger" - did he stop using it? did it work better on younger people? The mind boggles with possibility!

Plus the possibility of it all going horribly wrong.. and you knocking yourself out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oO7TbLOZYo

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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby middleway on Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:31 am

Plus the possibility of it all going horribly wrong.. and you knocking yourself out!


Thats why i like Caio's version, no 'Flying' hahaha.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:51 am

BruceP wrote:
GrahamB wrote:
Just to clarify a few things:

1. Nobody is making money from you clicking a link to Scott's blog. What is this "bait" you keep talking about?

2. Most people who write about martial arts on the Internet do it for free. I write my blog for free. It doesn't make any money. I do it because I want to. There are no ads on there making me money (Wordpress occasionally throws an ad up because thats the price you pay for getting free hosting, but I if somebody click it then none of that comes my way).

3. Occasionally I'll link to something I've been paid to write for another outlet, or to somebody else's blog that I like - so what?

4. You are still going on about me not showing you enough respect when you first joined EF (what - 10 years ago??) If you can't engage in a rational conversation without blowing up and calling everybody who doesn't agree with you "full of shit" then there will be no room for constructive conversation.

5. Most importantly, this all has nothing to do with Maartin's thread - how about we just stick to that instead. Like you said, I like the idea of stepping on people's feet. I was actually agreeing with you. I just didn't realise I was stepping on yours.


Fair enough, Graham.

I don't care whether any one here respects me, or not. That isn't what motivates me to join in the discussions and probably why I don't have a blog ;)

I posted that recounting to illustrate how far you are behind the curve and to typify how many of the ideas I've been repeating on some sort of weird loop for the past 15+ years are now becoming 'new info'. It's only a matter of time until people get on board with the Neutrality Principle.

Lots of folks don't agree with me, but I don't think they're necessarily full of shit. It was only you and that other guy. If you look at my profile, you'll see that you're actually my favorite martial artist. I wrote your name when that question became a feature of our profile info here, and I mean it. You've gone from irrational and Confucian to almost rational and Taoist, and you're challenging conventions and hierarchies that you used to defend whenever you and I clashed over ideas.

Sorry about your foot


Well, that turned out better than I expected. I raise a glass to your foot, providing it doesn't upset your neutrality principles, of course ;)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:23 am

marvin8 wrote:
BruceP wrote:Well, that's just it. A movement sequence like BKTS or FUE can be a throw or a punch or a punch or a throw or both at the same time.

BKTS is a strategy; defending against an incoming force by rolling back. Then, using that incoming force against an opponent to control or attack by pressing forward. This is considered one movement, that requires listening to an opponent’s energy and timing


Actually, bkts is an idea for applying tai chi method(s) - like all the tai chi sequences. Strategies are the plans by which ideas are put into effect. Tai chi 'strategies' are contained in 5-steps. The methods are contained in 8-gates.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby cloudz on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:37 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
cloudz wrote:The osoto gari technique isn't in brush knee.... it's in repulse monkey twist step. repulse monkey twist step is where the pulling hand is on opposite side to the leg stepping back (most Yang styles don't have this move). The big clue is in how the legs move; the leg sweeps/ steps backward. In brush knee you step forward, how can it possibly map onto osoto gari - well, it doesn't. Not really, but that's never stopped people making this stuff up as they go along..

Maarten, just learn the English names.

Wouldn't you say that using a Japanese name and telling me to learn English names in one post is setting double standards???



no I wouldn't, and if I have to explain myself you're simply not worth the bother.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:04 am

Nice imperialist attitude there, old boy. ;)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:12 pm

BruceP wrote:
Well, that's just it. A movement sequence like BKTS or FUE can be a throw or a punch or a punch or a throw or both at the same time.


I like your positive "formlessness" / ambiguity approach. you combine 8 gates and 5 steppings so a similar movement would produce different techniques. along these lines, for learning (both a mental model and actual skill) throws, I find the idea of shuai vs die and arcs vs. spirals vs. circles and some other principles much more helpful than going down a list or doing a form since opportunities arise differently and you can still pull something off or flow into the next thing, whether you have learned the textbook differences.

here is a paper (sorry if anyone doesn't like judo or wants to rant on "bringing some art x to taiji and it's not taiji internal grand poohbah blahblahblah") that essentially says a similar thing from a different direction. looks at throws that are nearly the same:
http://judoinfo.com/nagewaza2/
where the author says unfortunately the thrower has the 2 mixed up, I guess I would care if I were trying to transmit that art or in doing academics, but in practice and in general I don't care. it doesn't really matter.
Last edited by everything on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:19 am

cloudz wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
cloudz wrote:The osoto gari technique isn't in brush knee.... it's in repulse monkey twist step. repulse monkey twist step is where the pulling hand is on opposite side to the leg stepping back (most Yang styles don't have this move). The big clue is in how the legs move; the leg sweeps/ steps backward. In brush knee you step forward, how can it possibly map onto osoto gari - well, it doesn't. Not really, but that's never stopped people making this stuff up as they go along..

Maarten, just learn the English names.

Wouldn't you say that using a Japanese name and telling me to learn English names in one post is setting double standards???



no I wouldn't, and if I have to explain myself you're simply not worth the bother.


here the empty flower is ...

discussion about throws as the application for long TJ form/s/ I found always extremely funny -attitude from young days , probably.
Simple - you never get it doing the form. -oldman-
Learning here is done by heavy work with the partners, form you can use for polishing , entrancing spiritual level etc.
Don`t know how it is done in tradition of SC /John?/, `cause I came from judo, were after basic body training / 6 - 12 months/ you`re starting partner work with all that jazz. Some schools starts even earlier - just when the greenhorns grabs the break falls basic .

back to the topic,:
Lokin` on the Maarten body build - you shoud go for all kind of sweps/hooks - inner, outer , big ones like :
O soto gari :) , Uchi mate, Harai and Hane goshi. You may find Tai O toshi /throw by lowering the body/ handy too.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:13 am

Thanks for the advice. I think Uchi Mate looks interesting. I know that there are many variations in TCMA as well.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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