Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:04 pm

Bring whatever you want to tai chi but make sure the tai chi is well grounded first
The big problem here is most who do it ,do it because tai chi is too profound for them
The oscillate between hard style clumsiness and esoteric bullshit
You can see this when those who throw their opponents(cooperative dupes)with a flick of their fingers and then use too much force and loose balance when applying moves from the form
As I have said many times before add or delete whatever you wish but if it's no longer tai chi don't call it that
That is fraud
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:25 pm

As Steve pointed out on some thread, everyone agrees 99% of tai chi is fake, bad, just forms, watered down, misguided, a sham, unicorns, etc. The problem (even on RSF) is no one agrees on the other 1%. People won't even agree on 8 energies. Perhaps people think it's Taoist fluff on top of a village art. ???
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:20 pm

everything wrote:
I like your positive "formlessness" / ambiguity approach. you combine 8 gates and 5 steppings so a similar movement would produce different techniques. along these lines, for learning (both a mental model and actual skill) throws, I find the idea of shuai vs die and arcs vs. spirals vs. circles and some other principles much more helpful than going down a list or doing a form since opportunities arise differently and you can still pull something off or flow into the next thing, whether you have learned the textbook differences


The 'formlessness' goes even further away than that, though. The sequences are just ideas. There are no such things as textbook applications or techniques - just appropriate tactical movement. Hitting, locks and throws are incidental to that movement, like 'rolling up your sleeves' and slamming into someone while you're doing it. Time the pop with your arrival and let it hit where it may.

The same approach is taken in exploring tai chi movement sequences. Some people are able to use a sequence for multiple purposes while others may not have any sort of acumen whatsoever with that sequence simply because their body doesn't recognize its utility - absolutely nothing wrong with that. Everybody is able to identify tactical opportunities in at least some of the form sequences, and how an individual is able to see opportunity where others don't is where the ideas contained in the sequences appeal to their own sense of timing, range, current body method, etc - it just feels natural to them. The tai chi forms contain so many ideas, that everyone will find something that appeals to their intuition and current body method, and will feel natural when they apply it tactically. Discovery of one skill leads to another. Personal evolution is true ownership, and it can't be taught.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:43 pm

everything wrote:As Steve pointed out on some thread, everyone agrees 99% of tai chi is fake, bad, just forms, watered down, misguided, a sham, unicorns, etc. The problem (even on RSF) is no one agrees on the other 1%. People won't even agree on 8 energies. Perhaps people think it's Taoist fluff on top of a village art. ???



What makes you think you are in the 1%
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:57 pm

Who's going to admit that he's in the 99%? :)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:57 pm

Me
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:23 pm

Do you mean that your

tai chi is fake, bad, just forms, watered down, misguided, a sham, unicorns, etc.


Or, do you mean just to the 1%?

Humility is a virtue, though :).
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:47 pm

I thought my answer to your question was obvious
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:35 pm

if 99% do forms and maybe some subset does ph, there isn't much going on to be slightly better than that. :(
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:46 pm

BruceP wrote:
everything wrote:
I like your positive "formlessness" / ambiguity approach. you combine 8 gates and 5 steppings so a similar movement would produce different techniques. along these lines, for learning (both a mental model and actual skill) throws, I find the idea of shuai vs die and arcs vs. spirals vs. circles and some other principles much more helpful than going down a list or doing a form since opportunities arise differently and you can still pull something off or flow into the next thing, whether you have learned the textbook differences


The 'formlessness' goes even further away than that, though. The sequences are just ideas. There are no such things as textbook applications or techniques - just appropriate tactical movement. Hitting, locks and throws are incidental to that movement, like 'rolling up your sleeves' and slamming into someone while you're doing it. Time the pop with your arrival and let it hit where it may.

The same approach is taken in exploring tai chi movement sequences. Some people are able to use a sequence for multiple purposes while others may not have any sort of acumen whatsoever with that sequence simply because their body doesn't recognize its utility - absolutely nothing wrong with that. Everybody is able to identify tactical opportunities in at least some of the form sequences, and how an individual is able to see opportunity where others don't is where the ideas contained in the sequences appeal to their own sense of timing, range, current body method, etc - it just feels natural to them. The tai chi forms contain so many ideas, that everyone will find something that appeals to their intuition and current body method, and will feel natural when they apply it tactically. Discovery of one skill leads to another. Personal evolution is true ownership, and it can't be taught.


I like your approach. I think it's only for advanced practitioners (of whatever kind of art), but I can see what you're saying, and ideally I'd like to get there (probably won't for various reasons, but mostly trying in another art/sport). But beginners need some templates, don't you think? Most of us need some examples to learn whatever, not just MA, but most things you learn to do.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby BruceP on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:03 pm

everything wrote:I like your approach. I think it's only for advanced practitioners (of whatever kind of art), but I can see what you're saying, and ideally I'd like to get there (probably won't for various reasons, but mostly trying in another art/sport). But beginners need some templates, don't you think? Most of us need some examples to learn whatever, not just MA, but most things you learn to do.


Everyone I've trained only learns the form after about a year of learning to self-teach.

Yes, templates. Nine Temple Qigong and other qigong routines are all a first-year person would practice in their solo training. In that time, most of those people have tested their learning in different sportive formats (MMA, BJJ and freestyle grappling, toughman/boxing). Form makes a lot more sense after learning tai chi principles, and applying the methods under pressure.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:58 am

That sounds really good.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:20 am

just came across this nice bit of training/ practice on the tubes.

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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:55 pm

I liked what I saw towards the end.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:00 am

Some of our recent work on falls and throws

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