(Tai Chi) Pushing Hands is not Fighting

[BruceP]

I figured everyone here would be smart enough to know a rhetorical question when they see one. Maybe too many at once? *shrug*

[Subitai]

Sorry to ask...but I read mention of Mike Sigman? I don't see quotes or videos or links of any kind listed about him.

Just curious what's he got to do with your topic? Does somebody here study with him?

[BruceP]

Graham posted bait to sigman's blog. Apparently, something he wrote helps Graham figure out the difference between push hands and fighting

[wayne hansen]

I know you won't teach us but how about you put up some film so we can see your expetise

Are you looking to see expertise or looking for ammo to discredit what I said? You said "I won't teach you", but what did I say? I said the info was posted but people don't want to read it. What's the problem with what I posted in the op and follow-ups above? Don't you have any comment on what Chen Wei-Ming wrote? On weight training or rope pulling? It seems no comments have been made about the contents of Chen Yanlin's book, or the tai chi classics, nor anything I wrote about other training methods. That would be interesting. If you want to see expertise in a video there's a couple of Wu Tunan spilling the beans demonstrating some secret forms, and there's one of Yang Shao-Chung too, doing secret forms, in a videotape that was apparently stolen from the Yang family. Lots of stuff like that -- if that is what you are looking for.

Videos aside this is a discussion of push hands and I've quoted some uncomfortable truths from some very authentic family manuals, which seem to show that what is practiced today is very different from 70 and 100 years ago. I've also thrown about terms like "authorized to teach". That pisses people off because it's true, not because I am making stuff up You can read the books yourself. So asking after a video of me is pointless, you might as well ask after a video of anyone, it won't change what's written. I think though that if you are looking for ammo here the fact that I don't represent the Yang family and that I have no transmission from anyone is much more important than whether or not you can see me in a video or if I could fight. In that sense I am in the same boat as many people here. I just happen to have more experience with certain things, and more trust in the classics than most people. I totally get that a lot of people gave up and now look upon people like me as living in a dreamworld. But from my position they look like failures. I suppose that is why people are so interested in seeing videos but I am not interested in seeing videos at all.

I just think you are saying a lot and would like to get an idea where you are coming from
If you don't wish to show yourself just put up some of the secret clips you are talking about
Yearning k Chen was the first person I read on tai chi and am greatful for his insightful writings

[charles]

.. they end up going through 3 or 4 sifus before they find someone that can actually teach the art.

My experience has been that if someone can find someone that can actually teach the art within 3 or 4 teachers, one has been very lucky.

Many people who get baishi'd into a lineage eventually drop out because they could never really understand what push hands was all about.

I think that is a gross over-generalization. There are a variety of reasons that disciples - or other students - drop out that are unrelated to whether or not they understood push hands practice.

It is fair to expect that if you ask someone to teach you about tai chi, that you get the same experience with tai chi that they got, in order for you to reach the same level of skill and experience they did.

That might well be unrealistic. I didn't grow up in a martial arts family. I didn't grow up in a rural village in China where I practiced daily with the other children learning Taijiquan. And so on. As a white guy growing up in middle-class Canada my learning situation is very different than many of my teachers.


Regarding some of your other points, how do you feel about Chen Fake's skills? Rumour has it he wasn't too bad at Taijiquan. He was known to practice the long pole extensively. Where does that fit into your theories about training with a terminus point?

I think there are other elements beyond what you have outlined that go into who "gets it" and who doesn't. Get back to us in two years with how successful your approach on the Bell curve is.

As far as I know, you haven't stated from whom you learned Taijiquan. I'm just curious. Knowing that gives some sort of reference point to know where you are coming from on all this. You have stated that you practice/teach Chen style.

[Bhassler]

I figured everyone here would be smart enough to know a rhetorical question when they see one. Maybe too many at once? *shrug*

Yes, I think it might have been too many. Oh, wait...

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[windwalker]

And yes some of this stuff is stuff it will take me about 2 years to work out.
My teachers told me to come back to them after that.

interesting

you comment on what others do according to stuff you have yet to work out.
In effect its still a theory...

[charles]

I'm not so sure.

Perhaps you misunderstood the point I'm making, since you didn't really address it.

Maybe it is your problem, to a degree. At the very least if you can't make significant amounts of time to practice I would say it's entirely your (our/my/etc) fault. Look at people who practice instruments. It's the people who pull 40 hours a week that turn pro and play in orchestras (or get famous). So there are people out there who practice other things daily, for extended periods of time. I don't think this is any different.

This isn't the point I was making, but is a fair point.

I'm a classically trained musician. I used to practice 4+ hours per day every day. That's what it takes to be "good".

My primary Taijiquan teacher stated that it takes at least 4 hours of practice per day. I practiced 4 hours per day, every day. (I don't now.)

It is a given that one needs to put in the work. Not everyone can or necessarily wants to put in that much work. You'll discover that when you've put some time into teaching.

How much do you practice per day?

I seem to recall Eddie Wu worked as an engineer for a couple of years.. So maybe I don't need to pull them out of school, maybe...

And, he grew up surrounded by family members most of whom were well-skilled in his family's art. That's different than a guy who grows up in the mid-west, say, with not a single skilled Taij teacher in the entire town who is attempting to learn from someone who learned from a video on-line and a couple of books, such as the Classics you quote. My point is that part of the "Taijiquan experience" it is about situational opportunity: growing up surrounded by it vs. having to go search through the myriad self-professed teachers to find someone who knows which end is up.

Regarding some of your other points, how do you feel about Chen Fake's skills? Rumour has it he wasn't too bad at Taijiquan. He was known to practice the long pole extensively. Where does that fit into your theories about training with a terminus point?

Once you understand the internal mechanic, you can practice with weights and possibly with a terminus point but it would depend on what your doing.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but this in now a "qualifying" of your previous statement. So, because I brought it up, it's now okay to practice with weights and "possibly" a terminus point, but it requires that you know how to do it? Doesn't "correct" training require that one knows how to do it correctly? It's okay to do whatever training you do as long as you understand what you are training and how to train it?

Long pole aside Chen Fa-Ke was said to be practicing continuously.

But he was known to be very skilled with the long pole. Perhaps it was not an aside if that was one of the things he practiced continuously.

Yes, he was known to practice all of the time throughout everyday activities, including working in the fields. I do some gardening, and employ what "internals" that can be during that activity. Are you a farmer like CFK? Do you spend large parts of your day in the fields? If not, your experience will be different than his. It might be that that was one of the contributing factors to his skills. Should we dismiss that? Should we conclude that it was irrelevant - either or both the farm work and/or hard labor?

So shaking the long pole would be fine for him, playing with a stone ball, iron locks, etc. would be fine for him, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone just starting out.

Did anyone in this - or other - discussion suggest that someone just starting out in Taijiquan training should be shaking a long pole or playing with a stone ball? I'd recommend against it, and have stated so in this very forum.



In general, I find that you are making a variety of sweeping assertions that are unsupported. They might be true, they might not be. I find it difficult to have a reasoned discussion when a variety of assertions are made that don't really hold up well when questioned and the response to that questioning is to back-track or attempt to qualify the previous statement. Sometimes, when appropriate to do so, its a good thing to just say, "Yeah, I guess I was wrong."

I'm not going to labour the point, but it would be nice to have some insight into your background, such as who you studied with. It can be a useful reference in discussions to know a little about those in the discussion. I'm not looking for ammunition against you, just to know a little of where you are coming from.

[johnwang]

Did anyone in this - or other - discussion suggest that someone just starting out in Taijiquan training should be shaking a long pole or playing with a stone ball? I'd recommend against it, and have stated so in this very forum.

It may not be for beginner. But for someone who has trained Taiji for many years that can be a good test. IMO, if you can't hold bricks in both hands and finish your 108 moves Taiji form, you may have serious "internal structure" issue.

[wayne hansen]

I agree with the fact that some people practice with things like ball and pole too early
If you have not reached a point of full freedom of movement
What is known as dropping all strength to the bubbling Spring point(one of the most misunderstood things in tai chi)
You cannot add new trained strength (Jing) in a balanced way
With the thing of practicing the spear continuously,that is how it is with the entire curriculum
Nothing in tai chi training is meant to be dropped
Whole art,every day
If you don't do all you have learnt on a daily basis what is the point of learning it
If you have too much to practice each day you have learnt too much for your dedication
This is the problem with learning several arts
You are just a tourist

[charles]

If you don't do all you have learnt on a daily basis what is the point of learning it

That's an interesting question.

Some things are learned because it is part of the syllabus as handed down from within one's lineage. Some things are learned to broaden one's horizon, to introduce one to things that were historically or culturally relevant, though they might not be all that relevant now.

Some things are taught at different stages of one's development. For example, does one need to practice fixed-step push hands after one has practiced Taijiquan, sparing and fighting? What does one get from practicing it after so many years? Some things are taught as developmental material that, once learned, those things don't have great importance and the specific practice of which can be replaced by other more advanced practices..

If you have too much to practice each day you have learnt too much for your dedication

I've been taught a looooong list of stuff. I couldn't possibly practice all of it every day, and certainly not with the dedication required of each individual thing to obtain the benefit from the practice of that thing. There is a lot of adjunct practice. It is important, I was taught, to practice the core relevant stuff, which is a much smaller body of material. One could, probably quite rightly, state that much of what is taught isn't really necessary, isn't really the fastest way from point A to point B, whatever you chose to make point B.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[windwalker]

You are absolutely right. After all, "a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors."

But in the light it was intended, mind if I ask what your comment is intended to show? If this is just a theory, is it just a theory to you then? You know, it says in these manuals, you shouldn't be so picky who you push with. I have met a lot of people just like you over the decades, less than 1% of the Tai Chi population, and due to the insularity it creates there is often a highly reserved attitude towards pushing hands with others, who tend to get viewed as outsiders/beginners. This is a detrimental attitude. I'm speaking from experience here, the fact it is written down in manuals is another thing. But if you want to talk about what is written down in manuals what precisely do we mean by trying to show it is "just" a theory?

My comment was intended to bring to light that many of the things your asking or reminding others of you can not do nor have developed your self yet .
What I talk about is not theory, its from experience. Regarding what are called the taiji classics, even my own teacher advised to not really pay a lot of attention to them and mentioned he felt some things were not quite correct. He said "practice" was the only way....in this he was old school.

I am not picky with who I push with, I've engaged with many people in China, Taiwan, and other places.
I've just come to the point were I do not view push hands an "exercise" as some type of pseudo sparring as most do.

As such I do not consider it a real test of taiji skill sets as many do not really have the skill sets to start with that I focus and work on.
I feel its pointless with to push with those who are either not students or train under the same teacher.

I also feel that push hands as currently taught by most, is part of the problem with many taiji people not being able to apply their art outside of a push hands setting. Something easily tested and shown by the many clips of push hands, and no clips of skill and usage outside of push hands. One might ask why?

Actually I do not teach push hands as many seem to think or view it. I do use parts of it as a training exercise in developing or explaining certain skill sets.

Sparring should be the way things are tested and getting a taste of how things work.