the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I believe Taiji used to be called 长拳 (long fist).

johnwang wrote:I believe Taiji used to be called 长拳 (long fist).

I think that the correct old name should be "Long River Boxing/fist", referring to the Yangzi river, or "Yangzi River Boxing." It's spelled out and explained right there in the Tai Chi classics: "Changquan moves unceasingly like Chang jiang" = Changjiang is not only a "Long River", it's the chinese name of the Yangzi river (In China, Yangzi is just the name for beginning part of the river, not the whole river.) If we look at how Tai Chi movements performed, regardless style or frame, this name makes much more sense than "long boxing/fist".

windwalker wrote:
at 30:45 he does the bird demo

This is rather off topic, but since it came up and several people commented...

Birds sometimes flap their wings in order to maintain balance rather than just when taking off for flight:


It looks to me like the birds in the Taijiquan demo are fairly used to people and are comfortable sitting on the hand (look at earlier in the video). The demonstration looks to me like the bird is merely flapping its wings to try and maintain balance while its perch is being unsteady rather than to take flight! If so, then it is NOT an example of the stated Taijiquan principle.

LaoDan wrote:

windwalker wrote:
at 30:45 he does the bird demo

This is rather off topic, but since it came up and several people commented...

Birds sometimes flap their wings in order to maintain balance rather than just when taking off for flight:


It looks to me like the birds in the Taijiquan demo are fairly used to people and are comfortable sitting on the hand (look at earlier in the video). The demonstration looks to me like the bird is merely flapping its wings to try and maintain balance while its perch is being unsteady rather than to take flight! If so, then it is NOT an example of the stated Taijiquan principle.

Try it with something other than a pigeon or parrot.

The demonstration looks to me

So, you're saying that it's not an example of the tcc principle of "down before up," etc. Or, that the bird in hand example, which comes out of the tcc legends, doesn't apply? My question would be if there's an example of the tcc principle using a bird that's different? Why was that old legend told?

Taste of Death wrote:Try it with something other than a pigeon or parrot.

lol +1

@ lao dan, my posting the clip was in response to some asking if anyone used this demo in modern times and to show that while it
might indicate a type of skill, the skill itself my not be as transferable to intended usage, if the usage is fighting.

This teacher for what ever reason didn't seem able to use it when he needed it. For me I look at training,
and training assumptions.

right now we know that water melons, and birds are in fear, it is not clear if humans should be.

@ TOD,

You've mentioned a lot about birds. Can you explain a little of the mechanics or dynamics of
a bird taking off.

I've never bought into the bird demo as stated feeling that its not really how
a bird takes off...although it might have happened I would say the inability for the bird to fly
is due to other factors....

Was wondering about your thoughts on this?

I was pointing out that it looked to me like the bird was just trying to maintain its balance in order to STAY on the perch rather than trying to push off in order to fly away. If that was the case, then the demonstration was not showing the ability to precisely match the bird pushing off against the hand. That is, there is a lot of rolling and moving of the arm, much more than just enough to counter the bird pushing off, i.e., it was just making the perch (the arm) unstable rather than matching the push of the bird. If the intent was to disrupt the balance of the bird, then that was accomplished (but how much skill is needed for that!). If the intent was to precisely counter the push of the bird, then I do not think that that was what was happening.

Different birds have different ways of taking flight, but it usually does involve a downward push – some even need to run to achieve enough to be able to take off.



In the following video, watch the movement of the branch (pushed down) when the ibis takes flight.

that push could be quite incidental (it wants to extend its legs) and the wings do most of the work.

same with the geese (since they are "pushing" water).

It seems we've all been had by Keyser Soze all these years.

Well, either the bird is trying to take off or not. If the argument is that it is not, then it doesn't really matter why not. If the bird is trying to take off but can't, then the arm or hand motions don't matter because that was the intent.

Hey, I'm not saying that the bird trick is even a good test of anything. Yeah, it could be a trained bird. (Well, if it were a wild bird, it would really be impressive. Otoh, I grew up in a neighborhood where they raised pigeons, like Tyson). However, the bird in the hand thing (like other legends) was used to convey an idea. It wouldn't be surprising that no one could recreate it.

I agree it doesn't actually matter. It's a good story, a good saying, a good metaphor. It gets the idea across in a memorable way (heck we're still discussing it).

But digressing on this tangent is kinda interesting.

Steve James wrote:Well, either the bird is trying to take off or not. If the argument is that it is not, then it doesn't really matter why not. If the bird is trying to take off but can't, then the arm or hand motions don't matter because that was the intent.

Agreed...and we can never know for certain which, since nobody bothered to interview the bird afterwards!

I know someone who was on this site that demonstrated it to a senior student
Unfortunately I am not permitted to tell how he did it
And due to fact he was asked to leave the site it will never be revealed
I know some of his students read the site so they might be able to ask him
All that said the reason for the story was to display a principle