挤 Ji as "squeeze"

[everything]

sure but what do you think of Ji? press/squeeze/crowd/force your way in is all useful in an MA context, even if we keep a more narrow TJQ meaning. See if you agree with my #3 or my #2 above (sorry for the long post).

[Wuyizidi]

挤 Ji can be translated as squeeze. That is how the Google translates it. I think of it in this sense as "crowd" or "press in" or "squeeze in".

What do you make of this translation in a taijiquan context?

Physically ji is a subtype of push. Here push means exerting an outward force sending the opponent further away from us. In Chinese, the additional meaning come from that sense of "crowding" you mentioned. In order to be called Ji, there has to be a condition that there's no where to go to start with.

Examples: you're on a fully packed train, arriving at a station, no one gets off, and people on this station, instead of waiting for next train, just barges in. Naturally you get upset "hey, there's no room here, where did you expect me to go?" In that case you are being Ji'ed on all sides.

A closer example for martial art would be you're standing on the edge of a crowded train platform, and someone comes up behind you and try to get closer to front of platform, pushing you off the platform into the track below. That's the sense of ji in martial art.


In the four hand push hand, ji is really not the counter to lu. These exercises are designed as pairs of offenses and defenses, going through cycles of attack-relax-new attack-relax for person initiating Peng:
1. At first person A attacks with Peng, person B respond with Lu.
2. As the Peng is becoming less and less effective, person A senses it, instead of continue to try making Peng work, A relaxes - stop doing peng, become passive by remaining attached and go along with Lu, rendering the Lu ineffective, until person B reaches the end of range of motion for Lu. Now person A's body is almost touching B's body.
3. At the end of Lu, person B's weight is 100% on the back leg. Now A becomes the active party, he rotates his body, as he does he exerts a pushing force. This is Ji because person B cannot resist by pushing back directly, as his weight is directly over his back foot. All else being equal, his force will push himself backwards. So he counters with An.
4. As the Ji becomes ineffective, person A relaxes - rendering An ineffective, remain attached with B until person B's An reach its end of range of motion.

5. Now person A withdraws his hand, as he does this, person B remain attached (lian/sui), add force to create trouble for person A in the form of Peng,
the cycle continues...

For each main type of force the internal practice is to think one particular acupuncture point closing against (going toward) another. This integration is called He (and in Liu He). In all Ji, we think the jiaji point closing against the yongquan point of front foot.

[johnwang]

This means that all names in tai chi chuan have a tai chi chuan specific meaning, and not a general meaning.

This is why only Taiji guys use the terms:

- "carry" a tiger back to mountain.
- "fan" to shoulder.

which make no logical sense.

[Bao]

This means that all names in tai chi chuan have a tai chi chuan specific meaning, and not a general meaning.

And, obviously, that's why everyone in tcc agree.

People disagree because they don't understand the practical function. Some of differences can have to do with the fact that Tai Chi is mostly an oral tradition. Some words sound similar and there are local variations of pronounciation. Also language changes through time.

IMO, the confusion have reached a point where Tai Chi needs practical argumentation. The one that have the best argumentation and can show their arguments in practice will win. Experience and logic will prevail.

This means that all names in tai chi chuan have a tai chi chuan specific meaning, and not a general meaning.

This is why only Taiji guys use the terms:

- "carry" a tiger back to mountain.
- "fan" to shoulder.

which make no logical sense.

I agree. Many names make no sense. The origin of many names are probably different than how they are understood today. For instance, my chinese teacher believed that "ye ma fen zong" should actually mean to separate two wild horses by their mane. Why brush a wild horse mane? Why should a combat technique be named after combing hair? That doesn't make sense. But now this other name makes practical sense, especially for a martial art.

[Steve James]

The problem isn't that the Chinese characters can have more than one meaning. English words can have many different meanings and senses. The issue is translation, and that translators (Chinese and English) will use words with various connotations. There's almost no way to translate between languages literally. What is translated will be the translator's interpretation.

Yep, tcc and all cmas were tranmitted with mitts and words. Ji will be what your instructor shows you with his hands and tells you with his mouth. It doesn't matter whether the movement is called Wave Hands or Cloud Hands or Wave Hands Like Clouds or Yun Shou. The movement was named by a practitioner and told to his students. I think it's interesting to hear the various interpretations.

[Wuyizidi]

I agree. Many names make no sense. The origin of many names are probably different than how they are understood today. For instance, my chinese teacher believed that "ye ma fen zong" should actually mean to separate two wild horses by their mane. Why brush a wild horse mane? Why should a combat technique be named after combing hair? That doesn't make sense. But now this other name makes practical sense, especially for a martial art.

There are lots of mistranslation/misunderstanding within Taiji, even within Chinese - from classical to traditional. For example lots of people interpret Lan Que Wei as "grasp sparrow's tail", which makes no sense, it's actually "closing (like with a traditional paper fan) peacock's [open] tail".

Wild Horse Part [its] Mane is often translated as Part Wild Horse's Mane, is another example. Translated that way, it means us (human) doing something to part the horse's mane. It's not, it's horse parting its own mane by shaking its head and neck, as when they're shaking off water:



In internal martial art we talk about 8 directional force. Force exerted in one direction balanced, stabilized by force in another direction. In that technique our forward kao motion is balanced by turning of the face and opening of other arm in opposite direction. The internal practice is to think our spine as the long neck of the horse, and we're try to dry ourself out by shaking, in the process parting the mane in opposite directions.

[johnwang]

If we replace

- carry 抱 by "well fed 饱" (2 Chinese character with the same sound),
- "fan 扇" by "shoulder 肩 (2 Chinese characters look similar).

it will make sense.

- well fed tiger return back to mountain.
- shoulder extend to the arm.

[Wuyizidi]

If we replace

- carry 抱 by "well fed 饱" (2 Chinese character with the same sound),
- "fan 扇" by "shoulder 肩 (2 Chinese characters look similar).

it will make sense.

- well fed tiger return back to mountain.
- shoulder extend to the arm.

We have very different interpretations

Bao Hu Gui Shan:

Bao: carrying, hugging, as when a baby says "uppie", we comply by lifting them off the ground, carry them around in our arms.
In a given posture we could have many movements. Often it's impossibly to give it a name that would incorporate all movements. In my lineage at least, we believe this is one of many where the first two characters describes the first major movement, and third, fourth character describes the second major movement, and they are not one phrase.

There's a common expression Zhong Hu Gui Shan - letting a tiger return to its mountain. That's regarded as a negative thing - you allowing an enemy return to its natural/home environment. A classic example of this would be the Battle of Getttysburg, where general Meade, after defeating Lee's army, in the minds of many people missed a great opportunity to finish off Lee when he did not pursue the defeated Army. If Lincoln knew of the phrase, he would say Meade "let a tiger return to its mountain".

If we don't even want a tiger escape on its own to the mountain, why would we do the further favor of carrying it (how?!) to its mountain. Given it's regarded as a huge tactical mistake, this phrase shouldn't be used in martial art.

The first part of posture is turning the body, hugging/carrying in arms motion. That's hugging the tiger (we are so great, like some immortal, we can carry/hug a tiger like it's a kitten).
The second movement - Gui Shan, is the finishing move in Taiji. So Gui Shan means we have done what we needed to do, so we return to our mountain retreat either as a tiger, or like a high level hermit daoist/immortal.

Shan Tong Bei/Bi

Shan: fan
tong: through, connected
Bei: upper back
Bi: arms

Here the movement of the posture resembles opening of a traditional fan:



Our entire upper body is the fan, our spine the central spine of the fan, and the arms the two ends of the fan. Tongbei or tongbi is a general concept in Chinese martial art. Move the arms as if there's something that runs across the upper back, connecting the two arms. That we don't move each arm by itself, the other arm has to be engaged in a way that stabilizes, makes the movement of the attacking arm stronger.

Sometimes this motion is quite symmetrical:


In other cases, or other parts of the motion, it's not:


So that's actually one key part of understanding yin yang integration in martial art: the other arm, leg, or side of the body may be yin, but that doesn't mean it's totally relaxed, not doing anything. If that's the case it would be a deadweight, dragging, holding back the yang part. It is still engaged the doing things, it's just when considering what the whole body is trying to do, it's not the tip of the spear, relatively speaking, it's the yin part.

[everything]

Holy moly, Wuyizidi, that's a lot of information, thanks for posting all of it.

This bit caught my eye a little bit more:

For each main type of force the internal practice is to think one particular acupuncture point closing against (going toward) another. This integration is called He (and in Liu He). In all Ji, we think the jiaji point closing against the yongquan point of front foot.

I did not know that.

Also:

A closer example for martial art would be you're standing on the edge of a crowded train platform, and someone comes up behind you and try to get closer to front of platform, pushing you off the platform into the track below. That's the sense of ji in martial art.

what is your opinion of other kinds of squeezing/crowding in other applications? would you use the word ji for that? In a general word sense or a taijiquan word technical jargon sense? Both? Neither?

Translation is definitely an issue. "Press" is a weird translation, but perhaps that's because the translators understand this word in this context in a more narrow way than with the varied contexts of the everyday word. That's fine. However, if that's the case, taijiquan could be said NOT to have squeezing/compression/crowding/filling space in other ways, which seems a bit odd to me, because those "energies" are used in all MA in countless ways.

[Steve James]

Well, if there's expansion, there must be compression; if there's open, there must be close. (Then again, just consider the possible uses and connotations of "close" in English). This is a function of the way we conceive words and the world. It's inevitable, but not necessarily important to the practice (imo).

[johnwang]

In Chang Taiji,

- Ji is using the body. Whether your arm is in front and across of you chest is not important.
- An is using both hands to push.

So

- Ji uses the body and not hand.
- Also If Ji is squeeze then you must squeeze your opponent's body between your body and something else. What's that something else? That something else can be your own leg.

In the following picture, she is squeezing the ball against the wall.



In the following picture, he is pushing the car. He is not squeezing the car.

[Subitai]

Interesting Wuyizidi .... Glad you brought up the video about a horse shaking out of water. 1st time I heard that was from a member of this forum years ago. His name is Seth Davis...a cool guy from NJ. I agree with this energy model entirely.

? about the 2 moves John named:

- "carry" a tiger back to mountain.

Did you also mean "Embrace Tiger Return to mountain"?

- "fan" to shoulder.

Did you also mean "Fan the back"?

I'm just curious because I know he's an apply guy...so given how those movements are applied, I don't see the confusion?

[johnwang]

These 2 questions have been argued in the Taiwan Taiji society for many years. My argument on this is the following:

1. Did you also mean "Embrace Tiger Return to mountain"?

- You don't want to embrace a tiger.
- If you do want to embrace a tiger, you want to take that tiger down to mountain instead. The word "return" make no sense here. Who is in charge? You or the tiger? If you are in charge, you should take that tiger down to mountain. If the tiger is in charge, the tiger should mouth carry you and return to mountain.
- Embrace is a move that will require your body to bend backward. If people assume "Taiji close hands" is that "embrace". The body backward bending is missing. Some Taiji guys even consider "embrace - lift off the ground" as brute force and against the Taiji principle. Also the "embrace" is to use your belly to "bounce" your opponent's body off the ground. The "belly bouncing" intention is missing. The "well fed tiger back to mountain" is the move after "Taiji close hands" and before Taiji "brush knee twist step".

So the argument is from both the

- logic meaning, and
- physical application.

2. Did you also mean "Fan the back"?

- This move is not just to move your left palm in a downward half circle as "fan", it emphasizes on to send energy from back to your shoulder, throw your arm, and reach to your hand.

[everything]

Thanks johnwang and Steve James. That all makes sense to me, at least for now. I'm not following the other discussion, really, but that's ok. Carry on.

[Bao]

I agree. Many names make no sense. The origin of many names are probably different than how they are understood today. For instance, my chinese teacher believed that "ye ma fen zong" should actually mean to separate two wild horses by their mane. Why brush a wild horse mane? Why should a combat technique be named after combing hair? That doesn't make sense. But now this other name makes practical sense, especially for a martial art.

There are lots of mistranslation/misunderstanding within Taiji, even within Chinese - from classical to traditional. For example lots of people interpret Lan Que Wei as "grasp sparrow's tail", which makes no sense, it's actually "closing (like with a traditional paper fan) peacock's [open] tail".

Wild Horse Part [its] Mane is often translated as Part Wild Horse's Mane, is another example. Translated that way, it means us (human) doing something to part the horse's mane. It's not, it's horse parting its own mane by shaking its head and neck, as when they're shaking off water:

I've heard that explanation. It makes sense in speaking of grammar, but it also suggests that the name hasn't gone through changes. If this is correct, then physical tai chi movement makes no sense. Also, a horse can shake of the water in different shapes. There's no logic explanation behind it. Too complicated. Why would this or any tai chi movement be named after this habit of the horse? I'll have to agree with my own explanation instead, which comes from quite a well known Chinese scholar who is regarded an authority on language, Chinese culture and folklore. You can stick to your explanation, that's fine with me.

If we replace

- carry 抱 by "well fed 饱" (2 Chinese character with the same sound),
- "fan 扇" by "shoulder 肩 (2 Chinese characters look similar).

it will make sense.

- well fed tiger return back to mountain.
- shoulder extend to the arm.

Yes, these names makes sense both logically and looking at the practical movements.

Did you also mean "Fan the back"?
- This move is not just to move your left palm in a downward half circle as "fan", it emphasizes on to send energy from back to your shoulder, throw your arm, and reach to your hand.

And

. That we don't move each arm by itself, the other arm has to be engaged in a way that stabilizes, makes the movement of the attacking arm stronger.

In the Tai Chi movement it's the rear arm that press the other arm through the back to "send energy from back to your shoulder, throw your arm, and reach to your hand." The rear arm is not just stabilizing as in tennis, when the tennis arm strikes the ball. In the tai chi movement, as often, the rear hand is yang and is responsible for most of the movement. The arm in front is Yin, it supports, but does not do much of the movement. It follows the rest of the body's movement as the energy is sent from the back out to the hand.