the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Ah thanks a lot, that helps quite a lot. I'm not really catching what he's saying (hopefully more of a language issue and less of an issue with technical understanding (that could be it, too... )).

Hmm that's really cool. Good stuff.

I was thinking about what has been said about "pushing up" and "pushing down." If I had to advise a student, I'd say that it only pays to push someone in the direction that he or she is already going. Even if it's possible to go against the (vector of) the opponent's force, it will take more energy than going with it. Jmo when it comes to tcc.

Fwiw, I recall doing so-called "uprooting" exercises, and it always involved using a "Ji" shape, not "An." (Even though, if one were pushing a car up a hill, "An" would be a more efficient shape than "Ji." However, oddly enough, uprooting actually involved the "Peng" (i.e., Ward Off Slantingly Upward) shape. Btw, don't bother saying that Peng is not only in that direction. Really. My point is only a traditional description (yes, in translation) of a direction. And, there's nothing saying that it can't be done downward or to the side.

Hmm another interesting one. "Push" is not the same push as in "push hands".

"An" means push as in push a button. We would probably say "press" not "push" which is super confusing.

"Tui" (as in tuishou as in pushing hands) means push as in push a car or perhaps shove.

I believe people like to use Ji, not An when they do the uprooting.

Randomly found these descriptions which are interesting, especially the Ji one, given what various people here said about it. I don't know anything about this site, just found it.
https://combativecorner.wordpress.com/2 ... taijiquan/

PENG– refers to the outward (or upward) expansion of energy.
LU– often referred to as “roll back,” Lu is the ability to absorb, yield/deflect incoming force. There are 3 characteristics of Lu are: Yielding (Jan), Merging (Ian) & Adhering (Nien)
JI– is often thought of as a “forward press,” however it also best described as a “squeezing out of space.”
AN– is a downward movement of energy, best translated into “(relaxed) sinking.”
CAI– (Tsai) translated into “downward pluck,” Cai is a combination of Lu and An.
LIE– (Lieh) Lie or “Split” is a combination of Peng and Ji.
ZHOU– Elbowing. In Chen style, elbows are overtly shown in all angles, with a coiling effect.
KAO– when the arms are bound/distance is too close to punch, we can use a “Shouldering.”

btw, the google fails at peng, lu, cai, and lie. not that we should rely on that at all. it's just interesting that it fails. Unless lu makes sense as "stroke". I don't understand that. Msft calls it "smoothed" which seems to make more sense.

Here's one guys take on the 8 things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byvV5FUZCn8

Charles,

I cought some of your discussion with Bao about An.

I agree with him that it is not a one way force the way you describe it.
In my opinion Peng and An are 2 sides of the one coin.

Both combine to opposite forces in the body. Up and down. Dealing with the vertical. (lu and ji take care of sides, rear and forward directions)
To balance eachother.. Otherwise we'de just be going one way and we know that's not as good.

The difference is in how and where we project our force or what direction is our issuing force.
An we project down peng we project upward, however in both there is a supporting and balancing force in the other direction.

Whilst the swimming pool image may not be perfect it does capture the idea of a 2 way force. And it conjures force generation from the arms..
A more simplistic way to imagine or feel this is to just do one direction with the body while the arms move and project the force the other way.
There are martial advantages to these 2 way forces.

Often taiji forms will have you moving in one direction, say up or down, say forward or back.
This is a basic way of choreography I beleive and at some point balancing force should be introduced; for stability, if nothing else..

"where there is up, there is down.."

On Ji,

you mentioned your shin..

If you understand the nei gong of ji then all the body projects triangular force because the whole body produces it.
Therefore if you train the body skills that are powered by the neigong ('body force' training) and the possible uses you can have ji from various places.
The triangular force is a whole body force, only the focal points/ lines of the arms is just the most simple and obvious physical manifestation of triangular force.

That's your shoulder points, say and your hands forming the triangle. There is also the two hips that can act in a similar way to the shoulder points.

An important things to realize here is that there is no need for a complete physical presence to manifest the same type of force, in this case 'squeeze'.. One surface, one point of contact is enough. The body projects it and produces a certain quality of force (jin).. and you direct it to the point of contact. Of course with any method there is work and training involved.

So now I've elaborated how to you do ji with your shin?

https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

a good web site talks about different force models and types of forces produced.

Interesting to note that in some of the pictures it shows the idea of why something is named or expressed
by showing a bird being held or a ball being moved.

I see. 'Ji' is like giving your pet peacock a little cuddle, while holding your energy ball.

Glad we cleared that one up!

A gigantic, gigantic pet peacock. Yow.

everything wrote:A gigantic, gigantic pet peacock. Yow.

yep an interesting picture for "grasp the birds tail"


Wait until you see "GrahamB's"

snake creeps down...

@everything - that peacock is not gigantic. If anything I'd say a little undersized. The tail feathers, when in full growth, are a lot longer than that. I wouldn't want to pick one up though - nasty claws.

charles wrote:While I agree that every movement in Taijiquan involves some form of opening and/or closing - it is a basic mechanism of whole-body movement, because it is a basic mechanism found in every movement, it is not what distinguishes one action, one "jin", from another.

I tried to simplify. What I mean actually is the use of the trunk. The gua, dan tian, spine, muscles of the back, scapula, shoulder. All the 8 wins use body mechanics in a very distinct manner. Some movements focus more on kai than on he, some more he than kai. Some use "rising energy", some others use "falling energy", some use contraction, some use expansion. Looking at the body mechanics, they are all opposites to each other in different ways.

GrahamB wrote:I see. 'Ji' is like giving your pet peacock a little cuddle, while holding your energy ball.
Glad we cleared that one up!

Good that you have summed up everything so it's all clear, concise and make sense.

cloudz wrote:Often taiji forms will have you moving in one direction, say up or down, say forward or back.
This is a basic way of choreography I beleive and at some point balancing force should be introduced; for stability, if nothing else..

"where there is up, there is down.."

Exactly. Put another way, "Distinguish yin and yang". That doesn't mean that pushing up and pushing down are the same or necessarily use the same physical body mechanics. EDIT: in a following post, Bao makes it clear that they are not the same.

So now I've elaborated how to you do ji with your shin?

See the video I posted: a video is worth a lot of words.