Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby Trip on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:45 am

Hey Graham,

So that I’m not making assumptions, I would like to see exactly what you’re seeing when you say the following in regards to Yang Jun:
GrahamB wrote: ("arms moving separately to body")

You may be right, but I curious what you are specifically looking at.

Could you share a few, or maybe more, examples that include video times code (i.e. 5:14), where Yang Jun moves the way your quote describes?
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:55 am

Trip - I'm talking specifically about dantien controlled movement.

The subject is complicated because people like Chen Xiao Wang can do it so "small" that it doesn't even look like dantien controlled movement anymore. But generally, in most cases, and in most people it's visible - so long as they're not trying to deliberately hide it.

So for example, if you look at 2.47, after the move White Crane, Yang Jun moves his arms back to set up the Brush knee - that's just his arms moving, not his arms being moved from the lower body and dantien control (really it's those two things together forming a unit - the dantien and legs - that you want powering movement).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek_LjYWaveo

I don't think this is "wrong" for "traditional Yang style".

Contrast that to the same move in Chen style by Chen Zhenglei (I don't know it's name in Chen style as I'm not a practitioner of it) at 2.02 in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTyIQm-_Bj4&t=95s

After his Chen version of White Crane look how his body controls the movement of the arms into whatever Chen style calls Brush Knee. It's quite visibly different.

Hope that helps.
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby Trip on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:57 am

GrahamB wrote:We can see the choreography of modern day Chen and modern-day Yang is so similar, they must have the same root.


Found this quote from Yang Zhenduo in Traditional Yang Family Style Taijiquan
“The Yang style which first came from Chen style is called “Old Frame.”
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby Trip on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:07 am

Hey Graham,

Thanks for the examples.

I'm talking specifically about dantien controlled movement.

I understand. But, when judging Yang Jun you clarified your statement with his "arms moving separately to body"
...

GrahamB wrote:The subject is complicated because people like Chen Xiao Wang can do it so "small" that it doesn't even look like dantien controlled movement anymore. But generally, in most cases, and in most people it's visible - so long as they're not trying to deliberately hide it.

So for example, if you look at 2.47, after the move White Crane, Yang Jun moves his arms back to set up the Brush knee - that's just his arms moving, not his arms being moved from the lower body and dantien control (really it's those two things together forming a unit - the dantien and legs - that you want powering movement).


In the example you posted I thought Yang Jung just made a small movement to transition to Brush Knee. A similar small movement like Chen Xiao Wang.
To be sure, I went to see how Yang Jun taught White Crane - Brush Knee transition.

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyH5bDsJfuE

GrahamB wrote:Contrast that to the same move in Chen style by Chen Zhenglei (I don't know it's name in Chen style as I'm not a practitioner of it) at 2.02 in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTyIQm-_Bj4&t=95s

After his Chen version of White Crane look how his body controls the movement of the arms into whatever Chen style calls Brush Knee. It's quite visibly different

In your example video Chen Zhenglei's movements are larger definately larger than Yang Jun's movements.

in that same video, just before the his white crane movement is this:
Image
later I saw this:
Image

What do you think his of movement?
Are Chen Zhenglei's limbs moving separately than body?

In the end I think both styles use different methods to achieve the same effect of moving energy from the lower torso to the extremities and back.
If people like the Chen method, cool!
Last edited by Trip on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:51 am

Heh - well those gifs you make contradict my points nicely - in your clip Yang Jun is making more of a body movement, which was lacking in the bit I pointed to. And CZL doesn't appear to be coordinating his leg and arm movements. So, I think maybe I just don't know enough and should probably shut up ;D
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby Trip on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:58 pm

GrahamB wrote:...in your clip Yang Jun is making more of a body movement, which was lacking in the bit I pointed to. And CZL doesn't appear to be...


When it comes to CZL, I think “doesn't appear to be” is great choice of words.
A lot of what happens in Taiji is very hard to see.

...I think maybe I just don't know enough and should probably shut up ;D

I should probably shut up too!

But will we? :)


☮☮☮
Last edited by Trip on Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby GrahamB on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:03 am

Will we shut up? No probably not :)

I’m sure there will always be little bits of forms that you can point to and say “so explain what’s happening here?” But *generally* when I look at CZL doing the Chen form I see that each movement/posture is tied together and it goes through a circular store and release. It's fairly obvious. Watch Chen Yu and you see the same dantien controlled movement.

Of course there are plenty of people doing Chen style that don’t have that and move without dantien control when I watch him do his form. They are usually Westeners who quite often have paid large sums of money and invested time becoming disciples...!

So in short - I’m sure you can find isolated examples in any form performance that contradict, but I’m looking for the overall quality or type of movement shown.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby willie on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:56 am

GrahamB wrote:Will we shut up? No probably not :)

I’m sure there will always be little bits of forms that you can point to and say “so explain what’s happening here?” But *generally* when I look at CZL doing the Chen form I see that each movement/posture is tied together and it goes through a circular store and release. It's fairly obvious. Watch Chen Yu and you see the same dantien controlled movement.

Of course there are plenty of people doing Chen style that don’t have that and move without dantien control when I watch him do his form. They are usually Westeners who quite often have paid large sums of money and invested time becoming disciples...!

So in short - I’m sure you can find isolated examples in any form performance that contradict, but I’m looking for the overall quality or type of movement shown.
you're getting smarter. By the way the move that you were asking about after 2:02 is called walk obliquely but brush knee is just fine.
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Re: Taiji Origins & Creation Myths

Postby Trip on Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:36 am

GrahamB wrote:Will we shut up? No probably not :)
:)
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