Qi Creation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Qi Creation

Postby Subitai on Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:56 am

everything wrote:qi and ki are the same word/character.


Yes but my point not to get caught up on word semantics. It was that CHI Manifestation is not just from CMA... it is also referenced in other or different art forms.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby everything on Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:18 pm

yes, but I interpret the question as: why does CMA and taijiquan especially seem to help with qigong, qi flow, etc. I don't know about CMA (this is really broad), but taijiquan (not just senior citizen calisthenics, otherwise one may as well do Zumba(tm)) does seem to place relatively more emphasis on a certain kind of qigong than do most other martial arts or activities.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby Bob on Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:25 pm

See Yin Yang in Classical Texts by Elisabeth Rochat De La Vallee

" Our study of the philosophical texts has shown the yin yang represent opposite and complementary qualities of qi. They are the rhythm and harmony within the qi, the condensation and the development, the withdrawing into the depths or the surging to the exterior. We saw that this is seen most clearly in the great rhythms and movements of the qi through the four seasons of the year, with the heat of yang rising up and diffusing from the beginning of the springtime, culminating during the summer and the cold yin descending, concentrating within from the beginning of autumn and culminating is the winter.

Qi is nothing other than yin yang and it is through yin yang that we are able to see the manifestations of qi everywhere.


The manifestation of qi in the form of space and time is made through the yin yang. We find yin and yang at each level of life, in the body and the mind, in space and time. The yin yang actions of the qi complete each other, through a kind of mutual penetration and harmonious succession. Pathology is nothing other that the weakness of one and the prevalence of the other, and as a result there is a lack of one thing and an excess of something else, of heat or cold, of agitation or inertia, or irregularity in the movement of ascending and descending, or the centrifugal or centripetal movement of the essences and qi." p. 68

. . . it is never a classification as such that is made by yin and yang, but a way to describe the modality of the relationship between two realities, two things, or two being; so we are looking athte movement which unites them, and creates a kind of rhytm between them.

Yin and yang describe the kind of qi operating behind phenomena. They are properites of the qi which manifest themselves in concrete beings and things having a form.

They always imply change and mutation - there is not substance suggested by yin and yang but a movement of qi.

There is never a permanent state of yin or yang. pp.38 - 39


A Study of Qi in Classical Texts
Elisabeth Rochat De La Vallee

The Origins of Qi

Wind
In order to understand the origin of qi , we must first look at the concept of wind. A character for qi itself does not appear in the early oracular and bronze inscriptions, or in the most ancient Chinese texts such as The Book of Documents, Shujing or the Book of Odes, Shijing. What we do find in the very ancient oracular inscriptions of the 12th, 13th and even 14th centuries BC is the character for wind, and these early descriptions of wind have some of the qualities which will be later attributed to qi.

Yin and Yang
Late qi will be understood as what is behind yin yang and this is a very important shit. We cannot speak of qi without speaking of yin yang, and we cannot speak of yin yang without speaking of qi. For instance, yin and yang appear in early texts as two of the six qi of heaven. They are like cold and heat, which is to say they are not on the right, sunny side of a hill, but also the shady side. More that than they are the cold and heat which are the result of being in the sun or shade. Yin and yang will become a kind of differentiation of qi, as qi will become the influence behind any kind o manifestation. pp. 2 - 3
_______________________________________

Generally I do not think this has a strong relationship to prana or the practice of yoga. These ideas are unique to Chinese culture and part of their world view found in correlative cosmology and the yi-jing

Good place to start:
https://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Qi ... tory+of+qi

A Brief History of Qi Paperback – December, 2001
by Yu Huan Zhang (Author), Ken Rose (Author)
A Brief History of Qi", takes the reader through the mysterious terrain of Chinese Medicine, Chinese language, Chinese martial arts, and 'Qi Gong' - a truly evocative guide to virtually all the traditional Chinese arts and sciences. This book is devoted to a topic represented by a single Chinese character, Qi. When presented with the concept of Qi, students of Chinese culture, Chinese medicine, Chinese martial arts and a wide range of Chinese traditional arts and sciences, face one of the most perplexing challenges of their tenure. The book begins with an examination of Qi's linguistic and literary roots, stretching back through the shadowy mists of Chinese pre-civilisation. The authors then trace the development of the concept of Qi through a number of related traditional Chinese disciplines including painting, poetry, medicine and martial arts. The book concludes with an examination of the depth and breadth of Qi as manifested in life's cycles.

Yinyang: The Way of Heaven and Earth in Chinese Thought and Culture (New Approaches to Asian History) Paperback – November 15, 2012
by Robin R. Wang (Author)

The concept of yinyang lies at the heart of Chinese thought and culture. The relationship between these two opposing, yet mutually dependent, forces is symbolized in the familiar black and white symbol that has become an icon in popular culture across the world. The real significance of yinyang is, however, more complex and subtle. This brilliant and comprehensive analysis by one of the leading authorities in the field captures the richness and multiplicity of the meanings and applications of yinyang, including its visual presentations. Through a vast range of historical and textual sources, the book examines the scope and role of yinyang, the philosophical significance of its various layers of meanings, and its relation to numerous schools and traditions within Chinese (and Western) philosophy. By putting yinyang on a secure and clear philosophical footing, the book roots the concept in the original Chinese idiom, distancing it from Western assumptions, frameworks, and terms, yet also seeking to connect its analysis to shared cross-cultural philosophical concerns. In this way, the book illuminates not only a particular way of thinking, but also shows how yinyang thought has manifested itself concretely in a wide range of cultural practices, ranging from divination to medicine, and from the art of war to the art of sex.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:48 pm

Trick wrote:If I remember right from yours previous posts, you're a weight lifter? Then of course you know much about the importance of healthy nutritious food and the importance of getting good quality rest to get the maximum result from the weight training.


Yes, Weight lifting is one of my hobbies, I have many hobbies. And yes, both macro nutrition and micro-nutrition are an important part of it.
That actually is my point. Weightlifting is motion. Some of it isolates certain muscle groups and some is closer to whole body power,
But none of those exercises cultivate qi.

Neither does playing soccer, football, baseball, or throwing a Frisbee. Also, If just eating food was enough to cultivate qi, Then our society being
vastly overweight would need no cultivation at all, True?

Thanks
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:54 pm

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
willie wrote:Okay I don't really believe that is just a cultural thing.


One would have to show where this idea is presented in other cultures
or a similar idea producing the same results. ;)

The word "qi" is Chinese no?

Well the Indian Yogis have the concept of "prana", the Greek "Aether". I would also dare to say "the Holy Spirit" in Christianity is similar to the concept of Qi.


Hi trick. I don't really think that the qi "prana" in yoga is the same. I have met a lot of yoga practitioners and none of them have good qi cultivation that
I can see.
Interesting that you compared the holy spirit to qi. It might be closer, I don't know.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm

Trick wrote:Well the Indian Yogis have the concept of "prana", the Greek "Aether". I would also dare to say "the Holy Spirit" in Christianity is similar to the concept of Qi.


From what I've read they seem to be a little different.
The goals, uses and development are not the same.

Not really the subject of the thread just something I noted in Willies, post.

Back to the topic

This kind of thing takes a long (long) time to develop. First you have to find that force, then you have to cultivate/develop it.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046&p=443255&hilit=burning+plam&sid=c3c95802cf6cc56301ee438c1e37c706#p443255

It takes a while to develop the feeling, and longer to be able to use this.

With taiji as practiced by most, the emphases is on qi development directly. People tend to look for this, teachers understanding this tend to promote this aspect over other parts understanding that most are not really training for functionality.

Taiji is billed directly as an internal system one that develops the qi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaYrNNk ... ature=fvwp

He mentions it took him 10yrs to find it, another 30 to understand how to use it.

With all motion related to any and all activities, Why is it only CMA and "especially" Taijiquan movements that create qi?


Create in this sense is not really correct, qi is something that all living things have. Promote might be a better choice of words.
Taiji and CMA coming from a culture that is infused with this idea use practices that directly promote and enhance this development.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby yeniseri on Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:52 pm

There is qi in calligraphy
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby Appledog on Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 pm

willie wrote:I figured that I would just throw this one out there, It' just something that I have always wondered.

With all motion related to any and all activities, Why is it only CMA and "especially" Taijiquan movements that create qi?

Perhaps members of this board could share what they think of this phenomenon.
Thanks

Everyday one drop added to the bucket.


That's a really great question willie! I hope more people can weigh in on this fascinating subject! It's something I've been hoping would be discussed actually -- as Ensign Harry Kim would have said, perhaps it is the discussion that matters, and not the answer? Perhaps therein lies a clue. It could be cultural, a reference to something that has been lost in the modern era. Just a wild stab in the dark there. What do you think?
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:29 pm

Appledog wrote:Perhaps therein lies a clue. It could be cultural, a reference to something that has been lost in the modern era. Just a wild stab in the dark there. What do you think?

Funny I was just talking to one of hejinbao's longtime students. The question came up about saving face and how important that it was. Perhaps if they did not know the answer to the question, then they didn't want anybody to know that they didn't have the answer to the question and so never seeked to find out what the answer was. so perhaps the real answer was lost long ago.
willie

 

Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:32 pm

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread I have enjoyed reading them all.
willie

 

Re: Qi Creation

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:45 pm

willie wrote:
Trick wrote:If I remember right from yours previous posts, you're a weight lifter? Then of course you know much about the importance of healthy nutritious food and the importance of getting good quality rest to get the maximum result from the weight training.


Yes, Weight lifting is one of my hobbies, I have many hobbies. And yes, both macro nutrition and micro-nutrition are an important part of it.
That actually is my point. Weightlifting is motion. Some of it isolates certain muscle groups and some is closer to whole body power,
But none of those exercises cultivate qi.

Neither does playing soccer, football, baseball, or throwing a Frisbee. Also, If just eating food was enough to cultivate qi, Then our society being
vastly overweight would need no cultivation at all, True?

Thanks

Maybe an excercise such as Taijiquan teach the body(if practiced right) to act in a more energy efficient way, not only appliable as an martial art but in most walks of life. This " energy efficient way" might have been seen as "storing and cultivating Qi" in a time when science was at that level. But well there might also be some "spiritual" aspect to this that science has not grasped...yet..... It's an interesting topic.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:17 am

Tao is everywhere and penetrates all things
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby robert on Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:09 pm

It is difficult to discuss something that is inherently vague. Does anyone have quotes from noted Chinese martial artists that really nail down what qi is or what they mean by it?

Here are some definitions -

"Zhuzi yulei (Classified Dialogues of Master Zhu), juan 95, contains Zhu’s discussions with students on this Cheng Hao quotation. As mentioned, Zhu usually construes this as a li pattern underlying the complementary relationships among qi phenomena, which li itself transcends, hence implying a vertical bifurcation between li and qi."

So according to Zhu Xi qi is phenomena.

"Zhu Xi, the preeminent Neo-Confucian (daoxue) master of the Southern Song (1126–1271), is generally ranked as second only to Confucius (551–479 BCE) in influence and as rivaling Zhuangzi (fourth century BCE) in philosophic acumen in the Chinese philosophical tradition."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zhu-xi/

That's pretty wide open.

It's not just my interpretation of the passage.

"The concepts of qi and yin-yang are well-known enough not to require much explanation here. Suffice it to say that qi, or psycho-physical stuff, is the substance of which all existing phenomena are constituted, including all the phases of matter, energy, mind (xin) and even the various forms of spirit (shen). The term is used in both a general sense, referring to the primordial stuff of which all things are composed, and more specific senses. For example, Zhu Xi uses both general and specific senses in one sentence, in reference to the human body: "The pure qi is qi [here meaning something like "breath"]; the turbid qi is matter (zhi)."(8) It is convenient, although over-simplified, to think of qi as a fundamental vapor that can condense into solid matter and disperse into finer and finer forms. It is much like the aer of the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Anaximenes, who claimed that it (like qi) was the fundamental substance or nature (physis) of all things.(9)"

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Spirituality.htm

Paul U. Unschuld and Hermann Tessenow in translating the Huangdi nei jing su wen have this note about translation regarding qi.

"3.1. qi 氣
It would be futile to search in Chinese for a conceptual equivalent to the European
“spirit”, as there is no Chinese term that could be used to include meanings
ranging from Holy Spirit to methylated spirit. Similarly, the Chinese term qi
氣 has incorporated in the course of its two-millennia-long existence numerous
conceptual layers that cannot be expressed by a single European word. Its late
emergence in Chinese script in the final phase of the Zhou era, and its graphical
composition suggest that the character was introduced to denote vapors, possibly
in an early physiological context those vapors associated with food. Soon
Prolegomena
enough, the significance of the new graph was extended to include a wide range
of phenomena among which, at least from hindsight, a clear demarcation appears
impossible. We may assume that qi, despite its many diverse applications,
always referred to a vague concept of finest matter believed to exist in all possible
aggregate states, from air and steam or vapor to liquid and even solid matter.

In the absence of a conceptual English equivalent, qi 氣 is one of the very few
Chinese terms we have chosen to transliterate rather than to translate. It should
be noted that the interpretation of qi 氣 as “energy”, so widespread in TCM
literature today, lacks any historical basis.
Some passages in the Su wen may tempt one to assign a specific meaning to
qi 氣 and translate accordingly, for example: “breath” in phrases such as shao qi
少氣 or qi shao 氣少 (“short of breath”). Even in such instances one cannot be
sure to what degree such a translation is appropriate. The phrases quoted may
denote shortness of breath and at the same time conditions that are associated
with a shortage of qi in the organism. Hence we have avoided a more specific
translation here too."

All three are saying basically the same thing -

We may assume that qi, despite its many diverse applications,
always referred to a vague concept of finest matter believed to exist in all possible
aggregate states, from air and steam or vapor to liquid and even solid matter.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby Bob on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:02 pm

Tom Bisio's take always works for me
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby robert on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:46 pm

Bob wrote:Tom Bisio's take always works for me

From Tom's web site.

"What is Qi?

Many internal martial arts masters don’t like to talk about qi, and rightly so because talking about qi gets in the way of actually training the body and the movements, which in turn are the way we engage with qi. However in not talking about qi, it becomes the “elephant in the room” – this reluctance to talk about qi actually underscores its importance.
The ideogram for qi originally showed vapors rising to form a layer of clouds. This is also part of the character for steam:
Qi 气 The modern form of the character adds grain by using the character mi (rice) which is depicted as: 米. This creates an image of steam or vapor rising from cooking rice. 气 + 米 = 氣 Qi
Various interpretations may be made. It may depict the nurturing energies of rice reduced to their smallest component, a vapor, or changing states of energy and matter. In early Chinese Texts, qi is used to refer to various phenomena:
Air
Mists and Fog
Moving Clouds
Aromas
Vapors
Smoke
Breathing – Inhalation and Exhalation
In common usage, qi can refer to air, gases and vapors, smells, spirit, vigor; morale, attitude, the emotions (particularly anger), as well as tone, atmospheric changes, the weather, breath and respiration. In the body qi is often discerned by its actions, the balanced and orderly regulation of body functions, partly derived from the air we breathe, that cause physical changes and maintain life. We say that someone is healthy because the functioning of the their body (the manifestation of the their qi) is orderly and without dysfunction. Every movement, every thought and emotion, our metabolism, every movement of life and consciousness, is in some measure a manifestation of qi. However, qi also embraces properties that in the West we would refer to as being emotional and spiritual.
To sum up, qi is something that can be felt, internally sensed and understood, but it cannot be seen, measured or quantified. For example in qi gong and nei gong exercises, such as the “stake standing” practiced by practitioners of the internal martial arts, we are sensing qi and we can observe its manifestations and effects, but we cannot easily define it, so words often confuse the issue. Perhaps this is why teachers of the internal arts do not say much about qi."

http://www.internalartsinternational.com/faq/

That seems just as vague as the definitions I provided.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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