Principle -> Application

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Principle -> Application

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:20 am

Maybe the problem is with the word "style". AS soon as you have a style you have techniques and rules. It's fine saying you can apply principles under different circumstances but you have to actually train that and also differentiate between principles of style and principles of movement and survival
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Ron Panunto on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:59 am

It's important to visualize an application for each posture in the form. The yi (intention) drives the movement. If you're not intending an application with each posture then you may as well be dancing.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby GrandUltimate on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:21 pm

johnwang wrote:Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?


I pretty much agree with this. My Ving Tsun sifu always emphasized this as well. It's especially true for arts like the Chun where the forms are obviously not preset sequences of combat. At least in the Yip Man lines, the forms are really just principles repeated on both sides. This may be a touchy subject for some, but I'm often a bit skeptical of some "secret" styles of WC that seem be be showing up. Not that they're ineffective, but I don't think they're as "special" as they say. Some of those forms, IMHO, look like they were just made by someone who understood the principles and figured they'd make the forms longer because the implication is that a longer form with more different techniques means the form is superior because it's more comprehensive. I don't really buy that, but hey, I'm no grandmaster.

Moving from principles to applications is how I learn SC as well. I've been told by my SC Sifu that we have no forms, just 80 or so groups with many variations of application within each group. I don't even think we learn that 13 Tai Bo Posture form, though we do them separately as static holds. Then again, I don't know if that's considered a form in SC.

In the end though, it still leaves a lot of information to be absorbed.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Subitai on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:28 pm

I learned the basic principles about kung fu...I apply the applications vs different body types; big, small, male and female.

Through my research I find out what works. Not what someone claimed worked in ancient times.

I then concentrate on teaching and developing what works to a high level if possible. Learning what basic principles help me to apply vs resisting opponents. Then I make sure I know how to use the same principles to counter my own applications.

Most important to me...is how to use my experience in fighting to improve my set ups so that they will be natural and give me the best chance.

Theories are only unproven concepts (No matter how old and traditionally famous they may be) until they can be used VS ALL body types and different cultures outside your own comfort zone.

I don't claim to know everything (nobody does) but the trick is...what I do show, I can do really well. Which Is why I only comment on things that I'm 90% certain of or more.
Last edited by Subitai on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby everything on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:36 pm

What is a principle of foot sweeps? I would say I'm not good at foot sweeps, but then I haven't really practiced them much.

Think I agree.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:39 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Form-> application->principle

Lets' use the "Kao" principle as an example. It can be mapped into the following application:

1. Bow arrow stance, arm under opponent's arm, throw him to your right (or forward).
2. Bow arrow stance, arm above opponent's arm, forearm push on his neck, throw him to your right.
3. Knee push behind opponent's knee, arm under opponent's arm, throw him to your right.
4. Leg hook opponent's back leg, arm under opponent's arm, throw him to your forward.
5. Bow arrow stance, arm pull opponent's back leg, throw him to your forward.
6. Horse stance, arm wrap around opponent's waist, throw him to your right.
7. ...

Application 1 is recorded in the Yang Taiji form 108 moves long form. If you learn application 1, map it into principle "Kao", how will you be able to map into the other applications (such as 2,3,...)?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:52 pm

everything wrote:What is a principle of foot sweeps? I would say I'm not good at foot sweeps, but then I haven't really practiced them much.

The principle is "push/pull head down, sweep leg off".

Your leg contact point can be:

- in front of ankle,
- foot inner edge.

The push/pull contact point can be:

- neck,
- shoulder,
- ...

The sweep contact point can be:

- ankle,
- in front of ankle.

The application can be:

1. Shoulder pulling kick – push/pull, counter itself
2. Sleeve push/pull kick – sleeve hold, or upper arm hold
3. Foot landing kick
4. Horizontal throw, heel kick – back belt right sprint, right kick
5. Neck arm kick – collar/sleeve, twist/counter twist, single neck tie
6. Neck mopping kick- spin, wheeling step
7. Elbow locking kick – counter itself
8. Arm pulling, leading leg blocking kick
9. Reverse head lock kick
10. Front waist lifting kick
11. Head leaning knee seize kick – left knee seize, right kick
12. 3 points step kick – head lock, or under hook right back spring, right kick
13. Scoop kick – mirror stance, right scoop, left kick, collar/sleeve
14. Back spring kick – right back spring, left kick
15. Side spring kick – left side spring, right kick
16. Horizontal throw, inner edge kick – back belt horizontal throw, left kick
17. ...

Again, your form may record only 1 kind of the foot sweep application. If you convert your application into your principle, how will you be able to figure out the rest of the foot sweep application?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby everything on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:55 am

Thanks. I don't know those, but it's easy to follow after reading your principle first. Definitely.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:22 pm

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:What is a principle of foot sweeps? I would say I'm not good at foot sweeps, but then I haven't really practiced them much.

The principle is "push/pull head down, sweep leg off".

Your leg contact point can be:

- in front of ankle,
- foot inner edge.

The push/pull contact point can be:

- neck,
- shoulder,
- ...

The sweep contact point can be:

- ankle,
- in front of ankle.

The application can be:

1. Shoulder pulling kick – push/pull, counter itself
2. Sleeve push/pull kick – sleeve hold, or upper arm hold
3. Foot landing kick
4. Horizontal throw, heel kick – back belt right sprint, right kick
5. Neck arm kick – collar/sleeve, twist/counter twist, single neck tie
6. Neck mopping kick- spin, wheeling step
7. Elbow locking kick – counter itself
8. Arm pulling, leading leg blocking kick
9. Reverse head lock kick
10. Front waist lifting kick
11. Head leaning knee seize kick – left knee seize, right kick
12. 3 points step kick – head lock, or under hook right back spring, right kick
13. Scoop kick – mirror stance, right scoop, left kick, collar/sleeve
14. Back spring kick – right back spring, left kick
15. Side spring kick – left side spring, right kick
16. Horizontal throw, inner edge kick – back belt horizontal throw, left kick
17. ...

Again, your form may record only 1 kind of the foot sweep application. If you convert your application into your principle, how will you be able to figure out the rest of the foot sweep application?
everything wrote:Thanks. I don't know those, but it's easy to follow after reading your principle first. Definitely.

However, it left out the principles of timing.

Image

Outside foot sweep @ 1:27:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JG5RDjjXqM&t=1m27s

Inside foot sweep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OGRKF7K9ws
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:It's important to visualize an application for each posture in the form. The yi (intention) drives the movement. If you're not intending an application with each posture then you may as well be dancing.
Yes, this is totally correct. However, it is mentally exhausting and very difficult to sustain if you are practicing the form like 10 times in a row
Thanks for your post, it is the difference
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:34 am

The Taiji principle of "foot sweep" is Lieh, i.e., splitting (application of force in two different directions at the same time).
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby everything on Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:36 pm

really like the drawing and those video examples, thanks. "split" makes perfect sense to me, only in the video examples you don't even need to apply force the other way to produce the split "energy" on the recipient.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:31 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:The Taiji principle of "foot sweep" is Lieh, i.e., splitting (application of force in two different directions at the same time).

Do you have any clip to prove that sweep is a Taiji principle? The reason that I ask because the sweep has to train from "shin bite". From

1. shin bite - 45 degree downward force.

you then extend to

2. scoop - horizontal force.
3. sticky lift - vertical upward force.
4. sweep - 45 degree upward force.

It's 4 in 1 package. You cannot train sweep alone. We may get into a deep level of CMA discussion. This make CMA interested.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:35 pm

johnwang wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:The Taiji principle of "foot sweep" is Lieh, i.e., splitting (application of force in two different directions at the same time).

Do you have any clip to prove that sweep is a Taiji principle? The reason that I ask because the sweep has to train from "shin bite". From

1. shin bite - 45 degree downward force.

you then extend to

2. scoop - horizontal force.
3. sticky lift - vertical upward force.
4. sweep - 45 degree upward force.

It's 4 in 1 package. You cannot train sweep alone. We may get into a deep level of CMA discussion. This make CMA interested.

This sound as what I practiced with one of my Yang Taiji teachers, but he's also a ShuaiJiao teacher so I guess he also taught me some ShuaiJiao stuff along the road.... The foot sweep I'm most familiar with was/is how I learned it during my Karate days, a neat quick "little" technique for derfence or in attack to opponents front foot to "surprisingly" taking away opponents focus and balance followed by an point giving strike. I like that technique very much, it require great timing to work, and(for me)worked best when barefoot in the Dojo and the tournament floor.....My current Taiji teacher does them very neitely and effective during free push hands practice on the stony ground at our outdoor practice area....perfect timing I guess.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:30 am

johnwang wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:The Taiji principle of "foot sweep" is Lieh, i.e., splitting (application of force in two different directions at the same time).

Do you have any clip to prove that sweep is a Taiji principle?


Sweep is not a Taiji principal. Lieh is the Taiji principle and sweep is just one of the many applications of Lieh.
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