Peacedog wrote:Below is a link that displays a properly tested 33" vertical leap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9rmdU3R3TQ
For those unfamiliar with modern sports testing, the use of a Vertec is the only accurate way to determine a vertical leap and is the tool utilized by the NFL and all major sporting organizations worldwide that have an interest in this.
Ability in a vertical leap is almost entirely genetic. Beyond some minor improvements involving technique even the best coaches, like Joe Defranco, can at best add a couple of inches to a Vertec confirmed vertical.
Vertical leap ability is considered the diagnotic for inherent explosive strength, which is the primary charactertistic determining success in money sports.
The bottom line is that if you have a crappy vertical you won't do well in sports that require large amounts of explosive strength and you will not be competitive versus those that do regardless of how hard you try. Likewise, even if you have a crap vertical in a sport that doesn't require it you will still be disadvantaged against athletes that have a better one than you do as they can simply generate more power than you can for a given level of effort.
While champions may be made, because they are competing against other genetic freaks like themselves and fractional improvements matter at that point, an average person will simply get blown out by one of these guys.
Anyone pretending otherwise is simply delusional or inexperienced.
oragami_itto wrote:Is anyone saying that if you do these exercises you can be a fucking nfl quarterback?
You people are ridiculous sometimes
Steve James wrote:But, there are long lists of gifted athletes who never became champions, and longer lists of those who never reached their potential.
oragami_itto wrote:I don't think that I, with my funky knees and smoke addled lungs, and the genetic predisposition towards laziness could ever compete on Tom Brady's level, not a doubt.
But when someone who performs sustainibly at his level says to me "These are the exercises I've developed over the last 20 years in conjunction with highly paid professionals to help maximize my performance and minimize my injury" he has my attention. It's not like he's some broke has-been looking to score a quick buck like Dick Van Dyke's "Tai Cheng" workout tapes. He's a starting quarterback on year 18 of an estimated 23 who has been to the superbowl 7 times.
Particularly when the principles he's espousing align so closely with my own cultivation. It just makes sense.
Your mileage may vary. I know that the knowledge and experience of most forum members here vastly exceeds my own, and for that I am sorry.
It must suck to know so much that you can't learn anything new.
cloudz wrote:Can you make a Maradona out of a Dennis Wise or a Sugar Ray out of a George Groves. How about a Tyson out of any old short stocky H/W. Or why can't you make an Einstein out of every hard working Scientist ?
The problem with "champions aren't born, but made" is that it is too black and white to reflect reality particularly well.. and is hardly worth the effort to defend as a statement. Some people are always going to have an advantage when work is equal, whether that's physical force or mental/ skill.
That advantage comes from genetics and latent talent, where and when they are born plays a part too, both which is not something humans have a say in and can't be "made" later.. Not yet anyway. So re. location just beiong born in South America means there's more chance you'll grow up to be a better at soccer than being born in North America. As time passes things like that become part of genetic make up.
This idea that we are somehow all born equal with equal potential in any thing we choose is really smoke and mirrors IMHO. As is equal work always meaning equal results.. sometimes yes sometimes no. Putting the requisite time in has to be a given. The well worn 10k hours idea..
2 random people both putting in 10k hours in X does not make them equally capable or even champion/ elite level. I've come across people who had the desire to get good at something, whether rugby or tai chi and put real effort in. It's simply not enough on it's own. Equality, equal opportunities, equal potential it's all just 'pie in the sky' ideologically constructed.. which is ok, but I think it's best to always remember it's not a good or accurate reflection of how reality tends to pans out in the long run.
They do seem to be popular and persistent ideas though. I think we're all a bit different and have talents and potentials to different areas and perhaps not always for the exact same reasons. That all can be celebrated too. Motivation and hard work are a pre requisite for all success and successes so saying champions are made is really saying nothing at all. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a gene for that too. With the right know how/ technology though, everything can probably be hacked..
marvin8 wrote:cloudz wrote:Can you make a Maradona out of a Dennis Wise or a Sugar Ray out of a George Groves. How about a Tyson out of any old short stocky H/W. Or why can't you make an Einstein out of every hard working Scientist ?
The problem with "champions aren't born, but made" is that it is too black and white to reflect reality particularly well.. and is hardly worth the effort to defend as a statement. Some people are always going to have an advantage when work is equal, whether that's physical force or mental/ skill.
That advantage comes from genetics and latent talent, where and when they are born plays a part too, both which is not something humans have a say in and can't be "made" later.. Not yet anyway. So re. location just beiong born in South America means there's more chance you'll grow up to be a better at soccer than being born in North America. As time passes things like that become part of genetic make up.
This idea that we are somehow all born equal with equal potential in any thing we choose is really smoke and mirrors IMHO. As is equal work always meaning equal results.. sometimes yes sometimes no. Putting the requisite time in has to be a given. The well worn 10k hours idea..
2 random people both putting in 10k hours in X does not make them equally capable or even champion/ elite level. I've come across people who had the desire to get good at something, whether rugby or tai chi and put real effort in. It's simply not enough on it's own. Equality, equal opportunities, equal potential it's all just 'pie in the sky' ideologically constructed.. which is ok, but I think it's best to always remember it's not a good or accurate reflection of how reality tends to pans out in the long run.
They do seem to be popular and persistent ideas though. I think we're all a bit different and have talents and potentials to different areas and perhaps not always for the exact same reasons. That all can be celebrated too. Motivation and hard work are a pre requisite for all success and successes so saying champions are made is really saying nothing at all. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a gene for that too. With the right know how/ technology though, everything can probably be hacked..
Being born with athletically gifted genes in not the major factor in becoming a champion in most established sports. "Champions aren't born, but made" is more important than being born with favorable genes.
Important factors that make most champions include:
• Starting early in competitive activities related to the sport.
• Motivation (e.g., can include poverty) and mindset.
• Good trainers (e.g., technique, strength and conditioning)
• PEDs.
• Etc.,
PowerfulJRE
Streamed live on Oct 4, 2017
Bryan Fogel is an American film director, producer, author and playwright. His documentary "Icarus" available now on Netflix, documents the uncovering of the Russian doping scandal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2FCBIpKCdI
cloudz wrote:marvin8 wrote:cloudz wrote:Can you make a Maradona out of a Dennis Wise or a Sugar Ray out of a George Groves. How about a Tyson out of any old short stocky H/W. Or why can't you make an Einstein out of every hard working Scientist ?
The problem with "champions aren't born, but made" is that it is too black and white to reflect reality particularly well.. and is hardly worth the effort to defend as a statement. Some people are always going to have an advantage when work is equal, whether that's physical force or mental/ skill.
That advantage comes from genetics and latent talent, where and when they are born plays a part too, both which is not something humans have a say in and can't be "made" later.. Not yet anyway. So re. location just beiong born in South America means there's more chance you'll grow up to be a better at soccer than being born in North America. As time passes things like that become part of genetic make up.
This idea that we are somehow all born equal with equal potential in any thing we choose is really smoke and mirrors IMHO. As is equal work always meaning equal results.. sometimes yes sometimes no. Putting the requisite time in has to be a given. The well worn 10k hours idea..
2 random people both putting in 10k hours in X does not make them equally capable or even champion/ elite level. I've come across people who had the desire to get good at something, whether rugby or tai chi and put real effort in. It's simply not enough on it's own. Equality, equal opportunities, equal potential it's all just 'pie in the sky' ideologically constructed.. which is ok, but I think it's best to always remember it's not a good or accurate reflection of how reality tends to pans out in the long run.
They do seem to be popular and persistent ideas though. I think we're all a bit different and have talents and potentials to different areas and perhaps not always for the exact same reasons. That all can be celebrated too. Motivation and hard work are a pre requisite for all success and successes so saying champions are made is really saying nothing at all. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a gene for that too. With the right know how/ technology though, everything can probably be hacked..
Being born with athletically gifted genes in not the major factor in becoming a champion in most established sports. "Champions aren't born, but made" is more important than being born with favorable genes.
Important factors that make most champions include:
• Starting early in competitive activities related to the sport.
• Motivation (e.g., can include poverty) and mindset.
• Good trainers (e.g., technique, strength and conditioning)
• PEDs.
• Etc.,
PowerfulJRE
Streamed live on Oct 4, 2017
Bryan Fogel is an American film director, producer, author and playwright. His documentary "Icarus" available now on Netflix, documents the uncovering of the Russian doping scandal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2FCBIpKCdI
I covered most of that, the point is that work etc. being equal and what should be a given anyway; that's when natural born attributes make the difference.
cloudz wrote:In fact they are the difference. There's an optimum work capacity for everyone that isn't all that different.. Some people have natural endurence for example like Bisping, he can party hard and still have better cardio than everyone in the room, so I'm told.. People are born and made - Champion athletes included.
cloudz wrote:I wasn't putting things in terms of factors by importance; like major factors. there are plenty of factors, like coaches you mention. There are a number of factors at work but if you don't have some of the "right struff" for the sport to begin with then forget it. I could have all you mention and still not 'be a champ' at basketball for example @ 5 foot 8" tall.
When you have an elite group that are well matched, often it will be the most disciplined physically and mentally that get an edge. Beyond that the edge comes from natural talents and attributes. The best of the best are the ones that combine the hard work and all the factors come together and on top of that are naturally gifted. Natural talent and genetics are still big factors however way you cut it.
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