Pliability

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:54 am

Steve James wrote:Can a trainer give a fighter the will not to give up? I don't think so.

Yes. In video interviews, Mike Tyson with emotional tears says Cus D'Amato gave him the confidence and belief that he would be champion one day. Mike said things changed when Cus D'Amato died. Mike Tyson never said it was his genes that made him champion. Early in his career, Mike Tyson is crying before fights and trainers consoling him on video. It was the trainers and his environment that gave him the confidence, will and courage.

Can a gene "give a fighter the will not to give up?" If yes, what is the name of the gene?

Steve James wrote:Afa courage, take pro cycling. The difference between a good descender often comes down to courage. There may not be a gene, but it's debatable.
marvin8 wrote:
Steve James wrote:Anyway, I wanted to add that will power and courage are also genetic.

What are you basing this statement on? Is there a gene that has been identified?

I don't believe you answered the question. What is the name of this "will power" and "courage" gene.

Per Icarus and other documentaries, PEDs was the major factor in making cycling champions (which is the discussion), not "courage" or "descending."
Steve James wrote:Hard work is done by champions and by losers in sports.

I agree. However, the type of hard work and quality of instruction varies (just as in Tai Chi). The discussion is, "Is it genes or or all the other factors I listed that make champions?" Per the videos I posted, conventional wisdom, champions, top scouts, and trainers, it is the other factors.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:17 am

I specifically said that there probably wasn't a specific "gene" for courage. I know that some people have more than others. The ability to bike down the Alps at 60 mph is something that not all people have. The same goes for jumping ability, though I doubt there's a "jumping" gene.

Per the videos I posted, conventional wisdom, champions, top scouts, and trainers, it is the other factors.


You mean, the other factors in addition to natural ability. If you think that it's possible to make anyone into a champion, the problem is that not everyone will have the desire to become one. And, among those who do, only a few will accomplish it. The problem is equating any one factor with success. Greg Lemond got shot in the butt on a hunting outing, and that affected his career. Neither genes nor a coach had anything to do with it.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:56 am

You mentioned the word consensus. What do you think about this?
http://jump-science.com/is-athletic-abiity-genetic/

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/speedgene.html
Specific genes are mentioned here, but their results are synergistic.
Last edited by Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby David Boxen on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:58 am

Back on topic?

I'm just reading through this right now:

https://www.painscience.com/articles/stretching.php
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Is Brady wrong, or is it that it works for him?
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pm

Steve James wrote:I specifically said that there probably wasn't a specific "gene" for courage.

You said it here, unless you retracted it:
Steve James wrote:Anyway, I wanted to add that will power and courage are also genetic.


Steve James wrote:I know that some people have more than others. The ability to bike down the Alps at 60 mph is something that not all people have.

If you say there is not a courage gene, than it is other factors which I mentioned. Also, It takes more than courage and descending (e.g., like the factors I listed) to make a cycling champion.

Steve James wrote:The same goes for jumping ability, though I doubt there's a "jumping" gene.

As I mentioned, genes and physical traits have more of a role in those raw (fewer skills) sports or activities such as jumping, sprinting, etc.

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Per the videos I posted, conventional wisdom, champions, top scouts, and trainers, it is the other factors.


You mean, the other factors in addition to natural ability. If you think that it's possible to make anyone into a champion, the problem is that not everyone will have the desire to become one. And, among those who do, only a few will accomplish it.

Not anyone. Those that have the prerequisite genes are among others that also have them. So, it is not the gene alone, that makes a champion. It is the other factors I listed.

Steve James wrote:The problem is equating any one factor with success.

I am not. I gave a list of multiple factors, not just a gene.

I agree there are sports genes: MSTN — stronger muscles, ACTN3 — fast-twitch muscles, and LRP5 — stronger bones. However, the last place finisher has these genes also. So, a person is made champion by additional factors.
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:25 pm

David Boxen wrote:Back on topic?

I'm just reading through this right now:

https://www.painscience.com/articles/stretching.php

I would agree with that article. However, I don't think it's related to be relaxed when taking impact. I haven't read extensively about Brady's program. So, this may not directly be related. However, stretching before exercise may actually increase your risk of injury. You are supposed to warm up not stretch before a workout.

Excerpt from Static Stretching and Explosive Activity, http://athleticlab.com/static-stretchin ... -activity/
Vincent Ragland on Jul 3, 2017 wrote:As time went on, researchers ultimately began to discover that static stretching had no noticeable benefits in terms of power output. Instead of better preparing an athlete for athletic activity, static stretching simply elongates and relaxes the muscles, it doesn’t get them ready to generate force (Lebo et. Al 2014). In fact, having a small amount of tension and tightness in the muscles helps them to contract and produce more power. By doing static stretches before power based movements, athletes are stretching some of the desired power out of their muscles. . . .
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Re: Pliability

Postby David Boxen on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:38 pm

Steve James wrote:Is Brady wrong, or is it that it works for him?


I havent found what Brady does from what is online about it. The article I linked states that stretching has no benefit to reduce injuries. But stretching is defined as elongating muscles for at least several seconds.
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:51 pm

From the OP:
A pliable muscle acts almost like a shock absorber, helping to absorb and disperse those forces—one of the reasons he believes he can absorb hard hits.

It is more important to yield, than force against force and be "pliable."
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:17 pm

I don't think anyone has said that "genes alone" make champions. That's a straw man. The question was whether certain qualities of birth were more advantageous than others. Even working hard with those advantages never guarantees anyone will become a champion at anything.

No, I'm not retracting what I wrote about courage and determination being genetic. All humans are not equally determined or courageous. Name a quality and one individual will have more or less of it than another. One quality, such as long legs, will result in a more efficient runner. Yes, among a group of runners with the same length legs, other factors will make the difference in performance. But, luck might determine who wins a race.
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:49 am

Steve James wrote:I don't think anyone has said that "genes alone" make champions. That's a straw man. The question was whether certain qualities of birth were more advantageous than others. Even working hard with those advantages never guarantees anyone will become a champion at anything.

That is not the question I responded to. Initially, I responded to these statements, as they were well stated. Although, I did not agree with them completely:
cloudz wrote:The problem with "champions aren't born, but made" is that it is too black and white to reflect reality particularly well.. and is hardly worth the effort to defend as a statement. . . .

Natural talent and genetics are still big factors however way you cut it. . . .

I discussed several reasons why. Also, I included 3 videos. If you disagree with Steph Curry, Michael Jordan, and the coach in those videos and wisdom quotes: Legends are made, not born and Champions are made, not born, then I agree to disagree.

Steve James wrote:No, I'm not retracting what I wrote about courage and determination being genetic.

That's fine. But, how are your two statements not contradictory?
Steve James wrote:Anyway, I wanted to add that will power and courage are also genetic. . . .

I specifically said that there probably wasn't a specific "gene" for courage.


Steve James wrote:All humans are not equally determined or courageous. Name a quality and one individual will have more or less of it than another. One quality, such as long legs, will result in a more efficient runner. Yes, among a group of runners with the same length legs, other factors will make the difference in performance. But, luck might determine who wins a race.

Right. And I gave the reason Mike Tyson went from crying to confident and courageous was because of Cus D'Amato, trainers etc., not a gene.

Yes. Given the prerequisite genes, there are other factors that make legends and champions, which was illustrated in the 3 videos I posted.
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Re: Pliability

Postby cloudz on Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:07 am

marvin8 wrote:
cloudz wrote:
marvin wrote: A good tai chi player is more made, than born.


I'm not going to necessarily dispute that. But I would maintain that there will certainly be some people who take to it far easier than others and will progress at a faster rate than others in a typical class. having seen this first hand. That's natural affinity to a given persuit. Over time the average or below average student may catch up with hard work or whatever, but it depends what you're going to measure.

You are talking about two different things. I agree there may be some people that never get good at Tai Chi.

However, Tai Chi the martial art or fighting is a learned skill. One is not born with the higher level skills. The skills are learned. In boxing, most champions have decades of skill learning, drills, pads, sparring, hundreds of fights, etc. A good fighter can take away an opponent's natural speed and power with fighting skills. IMO, champions are made, not born.


I agree that no ones really wins or becomes successful at anything without any training or practice, no one approaches higher levels without (a lot of) that. Personally I don't get much out of talking about the blatantly obvious. But fine. I've never disputed the 'made' side of this here equation, in case you were confused about that.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby cloudz on Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:12 am

Steve James wrote:
Anyway, I wanted to add that will power and courage are also genetic.


I understand there could also be what we might call a lazy gene..
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:38 am

cloudz wrote:I agree that no ones really wins or becomes successful at anything without any training or practice, no one approaches higher levels without (a lot of) that. Personally I don't get much out of talking about the blatantly obvious.

I addressed training and practice here.
marvin8 wrote:
Steve James wrote:Hard work is done by champions and by losers in sports.

I agree. However, the type of hard work and quality of instruction varies (just as in Tai Chi). The discussion is, "Is it genes or all the other factors I listed that make champions?" Per the videos I posted, conventional wisdom, champions, top scouts, and trainers, it is the other factors.

marvin8 wrote:I agree there are sports genes: MSTN — stronger muscles, ACTN3 — fast-twitch muscles, and LRP5 — stronger bones. However, the last place finisher has these genes also. So, a person is made champion by additional factors.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby cloudz on Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:02 am

You're taking us round in circles. The example of tai chi is a fucking stupid one as there's so little to draw on regards performance. If we just talk about elite fighting the type of hard work and 'quality of instruction' needed is not mysterious and of a similar level accross top level of fight teams and fight coaches be it boxing or mma and to other sports too; tennis, swimming, soccer etc.

Antonio Conte for example is near the top of the pile of soccer coaches, he can 'make' a winning side as well or better than anyone. He doesn't have any big secrets that the other coaches can't know or don't know. He doesn't necessarily put in any significant more hours of work on the training pitch either. He has a formula that works, but then so do other coaches of his level.

Also you really think the last place guy and the first place guy are identical genetically ?
That's dumb and misses the point of people being different, no one has the same 'genes' in this context.. or the identical training and work ethic, for that matter..

It's not just one coach producing all the winners, often it can come down to a style of coaching or focus being more suitable for any given athlete/ sportsperson.

The discussion was about Champions being made/ not born.. I agree that to an extent they are made and haven't disputed that, but some are also born with various Natural strengths and traits (sometimes relatively significant advantages whether it is to do with physicality or skillfullness) that play significant part in their performances and successes. I wanted to highlight that, as that part often gets ignored or sidelined in the populist mainstream narratives: thanks for proving my point. To be fair to you, I don't think I'm saying anything that shouldn't be glaringly obvious either.

So please if you just want to take us back round another circle like this, don't bother!
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:36 am, edited 9 times in total.
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