Punching Power

[SitYodTong]

Oh, and you'll learn the single most important lesson in self-defense: How to keep fighting when you are on Queer St. and have no idea wha the fuck just hit you.

[Bodywork]

Since the external skin, muscle, and bone training are not part of the "internal" training requirement, Can internal guy through a punch without hurting his own hand during the impact?

Well lets see... I've broken bones-theirs and knocked people out many times, and have done so from only a few inches away. Since you enjoy dogging and poking fun at internal arts I'll mention I have delivered power playing with Judoka, MMA, and BJJ ers and a navy boxer who was out on his feet then flat on his ass. In my experience internal power means just that- power. And that power to throw, hit, kick, roll, choke, and move. Sooner or later you are going to run into someone from an internal art, fully capable of playing with you and delivering knockout power.

As to the OP's description of generating power. I wouldn't do any of that. Not a wit. With an understanding like that why are you studying an internal art or talking on an internal art forum? Just lift weights and go box, and train to do MMA.

[edededed]

Exactly! Well said...

[wuwei]

If your weight is settled on your feet, then that mass is not going into the punches.

I am not sure I like this sentence though. It makes it sound like he advocates throwing your body at your opponent. I am not sure that is what he means or not. I also think the statement can misctonrued to think that having solid footing when punching isn't important.

I think he is trying to address mobility. You can be very stable and hard to be moved if you lower your center of gravity but that could damage your mobility. It's something I see that happens with many people who incorrectly do ZZ for very long periods of time, building muscles but not the (lighter) hydraulic piston, which is what is needed IME for an effective punch.

I think he was talking about weight shifting/momentum transfer/using your body weight behind your punches, nothing to do with rooting or mobility.

[johnwang]

You cannot achieve "punching power" by relaxation and body alignment only, you still need tough skin, strong muscle, and strong bone. When you get old and

- have soft skin on your hands,
- have arthritis in your finger joints,
- lose bone density, and
- lose muscle definition,

your punching power will be reduced no matter how relax and well body alignment that you may have. This is one good example that we cannot separate external from external. They both need each other.

[ilove_thistuff]

what about snapping the punch. When i was training bak mei my sifu he didnt like me snapping punches once i made contact. he wanted me to follow through into the body to make their internal organs feel it. He showed it to me and I flew back like 10 feet into a wall. He told me that if he used more force i would have just dropped.

[Walk the Torque]

In the original post there was mention of tensing the fist on impact. This is of course effective but there is another method that can yeild just as much power; where the fist is expanded on impact, or is held with a space in the centre of the fist and held with only enough tension to hold the shape. Expanding the fist opens the joints in the fingers and provides quite a bit of power, or just having a decent hollow fist can be suprisingly strong.

Also all this bizniz of pivoting on the ball of the foot...........yes it can be strong, but if you are punching down it can be enhanced by puting weight in the heal and not pivoting.

Just alternative thoughts.

[Ian]

How you're reading into this all sorts of thing I DIDN'T say, escapes me...

If you think it's "play fighting"

If I think WHAT is play fighting?

walk into any boxing gym and ask to spar.

I've sparred with boxers. I regularly spar with anyone I can.

You will learn volumes about working through pain, fear, and the adrenaline dump in just a few short mintues. Learning to keep your head under pressure is best learned in the ring, with someone who is much better than you punching you in the face.

I fight in the ring when I can. How did I indicate to you that I don't?

In short--if you think there is a huge difference between what this author is talking about in terms of boxing, and punching in IMA...

Again, WHERE did I say that? Where did I even mention punching in IMA?

I merely opined that ring fighting, play fighting, sparring etc. is different from when you're surprised by the same thing outside the gym.

When you go to class or a competition, you have ample time to prepare yourself mentally and physically for the fight.

When you're surprised, the dynamic is slightly different.

Addressing this issue should be a part of any serious martial artist's training.

I categorically did not say anything about IMA versus boxing, or that ring fighting is crap or whatever.

Oh, and you'll learn the single most important lesson in self-defense: How to keep fighting when you are on Queer St. and have no idea wha the fuck just hit you.

Again, for some reason you're assuming I don't train this.

[DeusTrismegistus]

If you think it's "play fighting", walk into any boxing gym and ask to spar. You will learn volumes about working through pain, fear, and the adrenaline dump in just a few short mintues. Learning to keep your head under pressure is best learned in the ring, with someone who is much better than you punching you in the face.

EXACTLY what I was trying to get at. A person can throw perfect punches at a heavy bag or focus mitt all day long but unless they have trained to do it under the pressure of getting stomped into the ground, it will almost always go out the window once they get clobbered a few times. "Keep your head under pressure" is a great way of putting it.

[Interloper]

You cannot achieve "punching power" by relaxation and body alignment only, you still need tough skin, strong muscle, and strong bone. When you get old and

- have soft skin on your hands,
- have arthritis in your finger joints,
- lose bone density, and
- lose muscle definition,

your punching power will be reduced no matter how relax and well body alignment that you may have. This is one good example that we cannot separate external from external. They both need each other.

I don't agree with that. Internally generated punching power is ageless and doesn't require hard stress on the body. Decades of training carry the conditioning to generate such power well into old age. The processes by which the internal power is generated is something that seems not to be lost. In fact, to watch some of the elderly internal artists, I'd say that power gets better with time and continued training. If the person has a basically healthy, functioning body, he should be able to continue to punch/strike with great power.

Conditioning the skin, muscle and bones? The hand and arm are only a channel through which internal power is being delivered; when you have correct alignment, are striking with the explosive, penetrating acceleration that internal power produces, and you are striking soft tissue, it is not necessary to have "tough" skin and thick bones. I don't think I would chose to punch people in the hardest, boniest parts of their bodies when there are plenty of large surfaces with soft tissues under them. At any age I'd rather use the padded parts of my hands or arms to strike a hard target, if I have to do so at all.

A slender piece of straw can be driven, unbroken, through the trunk of an oak tree by a tornado if its alignment is right. Acceleration and power from the tornado do the rest. I remember seeing a photograph of that piece of straw, when I was a child. The straw did not need to "toughen up" or increase its mass or density. It only needed to have a narrow surface area that could pass through wood grain when given enough impetus.

Muscle -- Have you seen the photos of Jack LaLanne (age 94) in the Off The Topic forum? If you continue to train all your life, you continue to build muscle. The average older adult can maintain basic muscle fitness by doing housework, gardening and walking, carrying groceries and other normal activities. That's all the "external" muscle you need to hold your arms up so you can punch. The punching power itself comes from deeper internal activity, not the external recipe of accelerated hip torque + forward momentum + gravity.

Oh, and I've had arthritis in my hands for at least 20 years, and it has never stopped me from punching people out. Aspirin is your friend.

[Kaitain]

John - I think bagwork, padwork and sparring provide all of the conditioning that is necessary. Someone who has never hit anything has no right thinking they are capable of doing so without hurting themselves - correct shoulder, wrist and elbow alignment are only going to get ingrained through repetition on a target.

[C.J.Wang]

I once read a story about Yi Chuan founder Wang Xiang-Zhai in which someone asked him how his power compares to Xinyi master Shang Yun-Xiang.

Shang was a stocky and powerfully-built man known for his deadly crushing fist. According to my grandteacher, who knew Shang personally, his right arm was so thick and muscular that it was the size of an average man's leg.

"His shoulders are stronger than mine, so are his wrists, arms, thighs, and legs," Wang replied while pointing to various parts of his body one after another seperately. "But as a whole, I am just as strong and perhaps stronger than he is."

[TaoJoannes]

You cannot achieve "punching power" by relaxation and body alignment only, you still need tough skin, strong muscle, and strong bone. When you get old and

- have soft skin on your hands,
- have arthritis in your finger joints,
- lose bone density, and
- lose muscle definition,

your punching power will be reduced no matter how relax and well body alignment that you may have. This is one good example that we cannot separate external from external. They both need each other.

I think that's exactly the reason you need internal, because the internal paradigm does not rely on muscular strength and those other concerns for effectiveness.

For example, Master Choi used to break coconuts open with the back of his hands using his Lama Pai techniques and the resultant conditioning. As he aged, his skin grew thinner and was more easily broken, so to do that trick meant that his knuckles would split open. That skill was virtually useless.

However, he can still hit like a mack truck full of bricks using the methods and practices of the internal arts, and the healing aspect of those practices are still paying dividends in spades.

Master Liang, though his health was deteriorating as he was over a hundred years old, was known to have rude orderlies in the nursing home who would have accidents and injure themselves while falling mysteriously after being lightly touched by the old man.

Structure and relaxation are the cornerstones of power generation. Muscular power is limited to the contractile strength of the tissue, internal power goes far beyond that through the power of leverage and structure.

[SitYodTong]

How you're reading into this all sorts of thing I DIDN'T say, escapes me...

If you think it's "play fighting"

If I think WHAT is play fighting?

walk into any boxing gym and ask to spar.

I've sparred with boxers. I regularly spar with anyone I can.

You will learn volumes about working through pain, fear, and the adrenaline dump in just a few short mintues. Learning to keep your head under pressure is best learned in the ring, with someone who is much better than you punching you in the face.

I fight in the ring when I can. How did I indicate to you that I don't?

In short--if you think there is a huge difference between what this author is talking about in terms of boxing, and punching in IMA...

Again, WHERE did I say that? Where did I even mention punching in IMA?

I merely opined that ring fighting, play fighting, sparring etc. is different from when you're surprised by the same thing outside the gym.

When you go to class or a competition, you have ample time to prepare yourself mentally and physically for the fight.

When you're surprised, the dynamic is slightly different.

Addressing this issue should be a part of any serious martial artist's training.

I categorically did not say anything about IMA versus boxing, or that ring fighting is crap or whatever.

Oh, and you'll learn the single most important lesson in self-defense: How to keep fighting when you are on Queer St. and have no idea wha the fuck just hit you.

Again, for some reason you're assuming I don't train this.

You're right, I made some assumptions based on my interpretation of what you posted, filtered through my IMA BS meter. My sincere apologies--the meter sometimes goes off a little prematurely.

Best,

SYT

[Ian]

You know, I also reacted too strongly to what you said. Sorry about that.

Also, this is not the first time that I've seen you back down with class. Much respect.