A simple way, push and pull

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

A simple way, push and pull

Postby rojcewiczj on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:42 am

Lately, I have come to see my movements as either a push or a pull. Pushing away from the center and pulling towards the center, the center axis becomes the demarcation for changing the force.
Whole-body power is produced without any strange method, when the acting limb or body part is pushing from the center or pulling towards the center. It is so simple, pushing and pulling relative to a center. I have particularly enjoyed using resistance rubber bands to practice this principle. One finds that their is no special wave or wiggle, turn or twist, which will pull or push a rubber cord to your maximum, only lining up and pulling/pushing strait will do it. Again, so simple that I have spent years running around it. Now I find myself throwing my pushing hands partner effortlessly after breaking their balance with a strong pull towards my center, then I turn my waist and they are flung away. A strong strait and simple pull can sever balance instantly! The more my pull is lined up with my center axis the better, the actions become strong and simple like a bow. Pushing and pulling, The force is entirely linear, while the turn of the waist has no need for force.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby charles on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:47 am

"Four ounces deflects 1000 pounds."

If you pull on your partner with, say, 100 pounds, and your partner resists by pulling back with 101 pounds, they will pull you. If you push with 100 pounds and your partner pushes back with 101 pounds, you will be pushed. If you pull faster than your partner is able to respond, you will pull your opponent: if your opponent pulls back faster than you can respond, he will pull you. A "simple" push and pull rely upon having greater force and greater speed than one's opponent.

Speed and brute force work until you meet someone faster and stronger. Or, until you meet someone who doesn't really on speed or brute force to dominate.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:05 pm

You should never pull your opponent toward you. Your pulling can become his push. When you pull your opponent toward south, you should move to the west (or east) so you can move yourself away from his incoming path. This way you can lead your opponent into the emptiness.

Also you should pull in such a way that your opponent's leading arm can jam his own back arm.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby willie on Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:02 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Lately, I have come to see my movements as either a push or a pull. Pushing away from the center and pulling towards the center, the center axis becomes the demarcation for changing the force.
Whole-body power is produced without any strange method, when the acting limb or body part is pushing from the center or pulling towards the center. It is so simple, pushing and pulling relative to a center. I have particularly enjoyed using resistance rubber bands to practice this principle. One finds that their is no special wave or wiggle, turn or twist, which will pull or push a rubber cord to your maximum, only lining up and pulling/pushing strait will do it. Again, so simple that I have spent years running around it. Now I find myself throwing my pushing hands partner effortlessly after breaking their balance with a strong pull towards my center, then I turn my waist and they are flung away. A strong strait and simple pull can sever balance instantly! The more my pull is lined up with my center axis the better, the actions become strong and simple like a bow. Pushing and pulling, The force is entirely linear, while the turn of the waist has no need for force.


good post.
Now the next step. Maintain a steady, controlled 50 pound pull toward the dantian and then while still maintaining that same 50 pound pull
Arc it around a chosen path, Then on to a 3D path = Form
Last edited by willie on Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby rojcewiczj on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:16 pm

Force against force only occurs when you and you opponents force are acting on the same line. Your line should deflect your opponents.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby everything on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:42 pm

I don't mean this statement as a criticism. It's hard to follow whether you're saying you've just now gotten the super, super basics, or if you're saying "a ha, it was this easy all along" or if you're saying something else. But it sounds good.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby rojcewiczj on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:55 pm

I'm saying I just recently got the super basic, and that the super basic has answered many questions for me. A bow and arrow is a very simple machine, but it can do its job. Only pushing and pulling, my body has become a simple machine, but it can do its job. On closer inspection, a pure push or pull, a pure extension and contraction, a pure opening and closing, along a true energetic line, is not so easy a thing to accomplish. The super basic reveals its secret depths to those who are willing to humble themselves and follow the teaching, becoming so small as to pass through the eye of a needle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... q5diPganhw
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby Trick on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:53 pm

In the early stages of my Taiji journey I used what is described in the OP, I was always accused by training partners (especially those who where on some kind of high horses) of using to much force when unbalancing them. It lead me to kind of dislike push hand practice and have (almost) stop doing anything as such.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby everything on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:56 pm

yes I don't mean basic is easy. advanced can be basic done incredibly well, but that is not easy. I started off learning rollback to pull down, so got good at it. that doesn't really have push, it's more pull/roll when pushed (101vs.100 should approach 101+100).

of course next there is push/pull (split if you like)...
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:01 pm

I'm 100% against push. But I'm all in favor of pull. What kind of contact points do you use in your pulling?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby rojcewiczj on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:05 am

Points to pull are as numerous as there are places to hook or clothes to grab. Once you swallow them up, you can choose where to spit them out. Most people never get past biting. They chomp and chomp but never pull them strait and swallow them in.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby johnwang on Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:27 pm

Can you not talk so abstract and give some concrete examples? CMA is 2 persons art. It cannot be discussed in solo.

- How do you prevent that your pulling won't become your opponent's pushing?
- Where are your opponent's hands that won't give you any trouble when you pull him?
- What's your pulling contact points both with shirt and no shirt?
- ...
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby Trip on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:16 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Lately, I have come to see my movements as either a push or a pull. Pushing away from the center and pulling towards the center, the center axis becomes the demarcation for changing the force.

There is more to Taiji movement than a simple reduction of pull or push in Taiji movements.
Taiji subtly and simply expands in multiple directions simultaneously and sequentially.

But, say you just want to focus on push or pull.
Then, push and pull happen simultaneously no matter what direction you’re applying in.

For instance, if you’re applying standard Yang style rollback:
Left hand might slightly pull to the diagonal rear. While at the same time,
right hand-pushes out (sequentially up then down) to the front diagonal left.

[The sequential up down is like rotating (arcing) over the top of a round object. Kind of like a car tire rotating from the front into a left turn.]

rojcewiczj wrote:my body has become a simple machine, but it can do its job.

Taiji is not just simple machine movements.
It uses Complex Machine movements.
i.e., Taiji movements consist of two or more simple machine movements working as one.
Last edited by Trip on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby amor on Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:50 am

Trip wrote:But, say you just want to focus on push or pull.
Then, push and pull happen simultaneously no matter what direction you’re applying in.

For instance, if you’re applying standard Yang style rollback:
Left hand might slightly pull to the diagonal rear. While at the same time,
right hand-pushes out (sequentially up then down) to the front diagonal left.

[The sequential up down is like rotating (arcing) over the top of a round object. Kind of like a car tire rotating from the front into a left turn.]


Taiji is not just simple machine movements.
It uses Complex Machine movements.
i.e., Taiji movements consist of two or more simple machine movements working as one.


Agree its so much more complex than simple push and pull. But just dissecting your rollback:

Which way does the waist turn when the arms do their movement?

What about the the left leg, does the kua open or close (kua here refers to the hip joint), which way does the femur spiral?
what about the right leg kua, whats it doing and which way does the leg spiral?
What's the left and right shoulder doing, (left feels like it close, right opens imo) is this what you can tell ?

If your familiar with twist towel movement, rollback feels like a diagonal version of twist towel movement, that is complex, what do you think of it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj2zCYPrkV8
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Re: A simple way, push and pull

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:17 am

Even simpler, ward off and roll back.

It's the 1 and 0 of the AI being trained to seek and destroy in ten directions.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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