Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:39 pm

marvin8 wrote:However, push is necessary in your examples in order to "borrow" opponent's "force," correct? IOW, there is no borrowing without push.

Push is important in action/reaction; like in your examples. I believe your signature statement should include a qualifier to be more accurate.

You can borrow your opponent's force by push or pull. IMO, pull is better than push.

When you

- pull, your opponent can borrow your pulling force and push you. But you can step to the side and lead him into the emptiness.
- push, if your opponent's legs are free, he can borrow your pushing force, and lead you into the emptiness.

You can still control the situation after pulling. You can't control the situation after pushing. The only time that I use push is when I can get my opponent's leading leg and interrupt his mobility. If my opponent's legs are free, I'll never push.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:07 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:However, push is necessary in your examples in order to "borrow" opponent's "force," correct? IOW, there is no borrowing without push.

Push is important in action/reaction; like in your examples. I believe your signature statement should include a qualifier to be more accurate.

You can borrow your opponent's force by push or pull. IMO, pull is better than push.

When you

- pull, your opponent can borrow your pulling force and push you. But you can step to the side and lead him into the emptiness.
- push, if your opponent's legs are free, he can borrow your pushing force, and lead you into the emptiness.

You can still control the situation after pulling. You can't control the situation after pushing. The only time that I use push is when I can get my opponent's leading leg and interrupt his mobility. If my opponent's legs are free, I'll never push.

But in your examples, your instruction is to first push to setup/get a reaction from the opponent. You first push (out of 2), before you "get my opponent's leading leg and interrupt his mobility" and your "opponent's legs are free:"
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Here is an example that A borrows B's yielding force.

1. A pushes, B yields.
2. A borrows B's yielding force and pushes again.


Here is an example that A borrows B's resisting force.

1. A pushes, B resists.
2. A borrows B's resisting force and change push into pull, B resists again.
3. A borrows B's resisting force and change pull back into push.


I'm still allergy to "push".

I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:18 pm

marvin8 wrote:But in your examples, your instruction is to first push to setup/get a reaction from the opponent. You first push (out of 2), before you "get my opponent's leading leg and interrupt his mobility" and your "opponent's legs are free:"

I may not make myself clear here. Push on the shoulder and pull the leading leg are done at the same time.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:30 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:But in your examples, your instruction is to first push to setup/get a reaction from the opponent. You first push (out of 2), before you "get my opponent's leading leg and interrupt his mobility" and your "opponent's legs are free:"

I may not make myself clear here. Push on the shoulder and pull the leading leg are done at the same time.

That is your last step. Before in steps 1 & 2, you instruct to "push" and "borrow B's resisting force." That is my understanding from your instructions and video; push to setup, then push to finish.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:48 pm

It may be more clear if I modify my post as:

Here is an example that A borrows B's yielding force.

1. A pushes B's shoulder and pull B's leg, B yields and steps back.
2. A borrows B's yielding force and pushes B's shoulder again and uses leg to hook B's leg.

Here is an example that A borrows B's resisting force.

1. A pushes B's shoulder and pull B's leg, B resists and steps back.
2. A borrows B's resisting force and change push into pull, B resists again.
3. A borrows B's resisting force and change pull back into pushes B's shoulder and pulls B's leg.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:42 pm

johnwang wrote:It may be more clear if I modify my post as:

Here is an example that A borrows B's yielding force.

1. A pushes B's shoulder and pull B's leg, B yields and steps back.
2. A borrows B's yielding force and pushes B's shoulder again and uses leg to hook B's leg.

Here is an example that A borrows B's resisting force.

1. A pushes B's shoulder and pull B's leg, B resists and steps back.
2. A borrows B's resisting force and change push into pull, B resists again.
3. A borrows B's resisting force and change pull back into pushes B's shoulder and pulls B's leg.

You are still illustrating the importance of push to setup/"borrow," which is contrary to your forum signature, I'm still allergy to "push". I take your signature as saying you never push. If you do then, IMO you should add a qualifier to your signature.

marvin8 wrote:I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

I thought I could get you to soften your stance on push. Since, I take your signature as tongue-in-cheek, superiority over IMA's use of push. The irony is you instruct and use push in your videos, therefore showing it is important.

Your "modified" examples contained a qualifier. But, your first examples that I responded to did not. That is what I meant by:
marvin8 wrote:I believe your signature statement should include a qualifier to be more accurate.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:22 am

In my opinion, Marvin8's long post on the subject is the overall most correct take on the concept.

The only exception I'd take with it is that this particular section (describing absorbing directly then rebounding into the opponent) sounds more like what Cheng Man Ching calls Ti Fang. Peng makes it, and all taiji possible, but it's decidedly different than roll back, which is another option for the "second phase" as he puts it. Ti Fang isn't Peng, but Peng is in Ti Fang, I mean to say.

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from Peng, the Elastic Power, http://taichi-philosophy.blogspot.com/2 ... power.html:
Martin Boedicker, aka Martin2, on December 19. 2013 wrote:. . . But why it is so difficult to use peng? To understand this, one must divide the use of peng into two phases.

The first phase of peng

In the first phase one leads the force of the opponent into one owns center and one collects it like in a spring. Through this, one is also able to feel the direction and the amount of the attacking force.

Ma Yueliang:
Peng is a reaction to the amount of the force of the opponent. In Pushhands one finds peng not only in the hands and arms, but all parts of the body have peng-power, which touch the opponent. If one has peng-power, one reached: 'If a movement is fast, one answers fast. If a movement is slow, one answers slow.' If one masters this, the feeling-power (tingjin) is just peng.


. . . Thus, here peng is explained by the power of a spring. A similar picture was probably used, when the Tai Chi-masters changed the old Chinese character bing into the Tai Chi technical term peng. Originally bing stands for a quiver cover under pressure. The character of bing has the radical of hand (left) and the character with the pronunciation bing or peng (right):

Image

This character is connected to:

Image

The left character peng with the radical wood denotes an old war bow. The right character with the radical silk and the pronunciation bing denotes the pulling of a bow.

In the first phase of peng the incoming force is stored in one owns body like in a spring or in a drawn bow.
The great difficulty in this phase of peng is, that the your body has to take the force of the opponent in an optimal way. Just the smallest mistake in timing or structure of the body will result in the technique collapsing.

The second phase of peng

In the second phase of peng one can release the stored power in different ways. If the power is send back into the opponent, one still calls this peng.

Ma Yueliang:
"If one was able to control the force of the opponent, one can use this opportunity against him and thus defeat him."
(Ma, Xu, p.9)

On the other hand one can also lead the stored energy with lü into the emptiness and thus destroy the center of the opponent. Ma Jiangbao explains it in this way:

"First I uses a small peng to feel the force of the opponent and then I lead him into the emptiness with a lü."


Ma Yueliang comments:
Peng-jin is full, but not full. It is empty, but not empty. Once full - once empty. The other does not know me, but I alone know the other. This explains, why peng is a hidden jin-power. Peng is also explained as the jin-power in the background. It is repeatedly said, that peng is like water. Water can carry a fallen leave as well as a big ship. In pushhands it doesn't matter if the attacking force is small or big. With peng you can master it. But peng is not only the carrying relationship that a boat has with water, but it is also a fine and subtle movement. When I receive the force of the other, I use my central equilibrium (zhongding) as a pivot, to change the direction of the incoming force upwards. In this way I let the other hang in the air and I can use a smaller force than the opponent: Even if he uses a thousand pounds, it is easy to let him float.
(Ma, Xu, p. 9)


The difficulty of peng in the second phase is to decide, what one wants to do with the force of the opponent. In the end one is dealing with a large force and even the smallest mistake allows the the full force to impact into your own body. Thus one should train the full peng only, when one has reached the level to deal with great force without using too much force oneself.

"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:22 am

Ti Fang isn't Peng, but Peng is in Ti Fang, I mean to say.


Ti means to lift, uproot. Fang is release, let go. If you speak about techniques or movement as in the 8 basic jins, you don’t need peng to “ti”, you can use ji, zhou or kou as well. You can also uproot with a lü and let go with a peng. Or you can even use isolated arm movements. Doesn’t matter what. If you speak about pengjin as the quality that the tai chi practitioners try to develop as a part of their shenfa, then pengjin is in everything you do with your tai chi body, in ji, zhou, kou or even in an isolated arm movement.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:13 am

I'll chose the classics over any chen ma and wang every time.. they're reliable, unchanging and consistent.


The chin [intrinsic strength] is sung [relaxed], but not sung;
it is capable of great extension, but is not extended.

The chin is broken, but the I is not.

The chin is stored (having a surplus) by means of the curved.

The chin* is released by the back,
and the steps follow the changes of the body.

The mobilization of the chin is like refining steel a hundred times over.
There is nothing hard it cannot destroy.

Store up the chin like drawing a bow.

Mobilize the chin like drawing silk from a cocoon.

Release the chin like releasing the arrow.

To fa-chin [discharge energy],
sink,
relax completely,
and aim in one direction!

In the curve seek the straight,
store,
then release.


So peng on this thread has been song, ting and the jin/ neijin (of tcc) - according to sources that don't have the capacity to experientially embelish their descriptions as they go along. No one's going to tell me that the writers of the classics overlooked to call this store/ release jin "Peng". It's song that gives our jin it's inherent springiness within; the potential is only seen when it is activated from outside. Ting has to combine with a lot, so it doesn't surprise either that it gets infused into some descriptions of Peng.

I can't say I've heard much of store / release being seen as or being called Peng, I like Martins stuff, but I don't buy that. I just don't get the point of it at all. The store and release body mechanics can just as well release Ji as Peng..
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:56 pm

cloudz wrote:I can't say I've heard much of store / release being seen as or being called Peng, I like Martins stuff, but I don't buy that. I just don't get the point of it at all. The store and release body mechanics can just as well release Ji as Peng..


Agree. I would rather say that peng (as one of the eight jins) and ji are expressions of release. Lü is an aspect of storing. Peng follows lü. Use them store and release jin.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:16 pm

That is not a great translation of the classics cloudz
The part about refining steel is a little confusing
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:53 pm

when hip and shoulder joints work together, people will say you are very strong and coordinated. Perhaps, if you are a Chinese person immersed within Chinese traditional martial arts culture, the word peng expresses the quality of strength you have obtained. Needless to say, I am not such a person and so the word "peng" has little use to me. Can we really say that the Chinese created a quality of the body which no one else obtains outside of that culture? I say no, and so I'm more interested in the objective process of developing and expressing power in the human body, than in the worship of exotic cultural artifacts
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:56 pm

If someone is interested, I just published an article, or a pretty massive (2200+ words) post, on the ba jin, or on the eight energies. It’s my take on what the heck the meaning with the eight jins is. Sometimes it’s good to look at the broader picture, IMO.

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chi-chuan/
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Appledog on Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:58 pm

Strange wrote:达摩西来一字无,全凭心意用功夫;若要纸上寻佛法,笔尖蘸干洞庭湖

Bohdidharma came from the west with not one word of chinese
All his studies were based on xinyi
if you seek to understand the essence of Buddhism in paper
your brush tip may have to make dry Lake Dong Ting

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Lake Dong Ting
Northern Hunan
Approx Area: 2500 square km
Coastline Perimeter: 800 km approx


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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Appledog on Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:15 pm

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from The Five Most Important Taijiquan Skills for Beginners: Peng Jin and Ding Jin, https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/b ... rs-part-2/
Wang Hai Jun, translated by Nick Gudge wrote:Peng Jin – an outward supportive strength the basic skill of taijiquan

Peng Jin (sometimes simply Peng) is the core skill of taijiquan. All other taijiquan skills are based around the skill. It comes from loosening the body (fang song) and stretching. In essence, ‘stretching but not straightening’ the joints. Peng is not a natural or instinctive skill. It comes from a long period of correct practice. Without a good understanding of peng and then considerable training to transform this understanding into this skill in every part of the body, it will not arise. Peng will not be gained by accident. It is systematically trained into the body over time.


Now I understand this. It took a couple of years, and some time off to reflect. Visiting my sifus again. Getting their special instruction. Seeing your previous videos on this thread. And reading this. Now I understand.

Yes, I have had an epiphany. I think at this point what I have to offer is worth monetizing. I am sure absolutely no one here will agree. And despite my mental understanding going into the stratosphere I have become a lazy bum so demonstrating all of this would be difficult but not impossible.

But for the last time I will make the offer, maybe with a time horizon on it. Come here before June, and I will show you what I know. If you don't know what peng is and you are desperate to learn, look around and realize in despair pretty much no one can teach you. But I know the secret now, I figured it all out, and one day I will be a famous tai chi master and I will charge a lot of money for this information.

I figured it all out and my mind has been blown. What my teacher said about remembering past lives is basically true. I must have been tai chi masters many times in the past because what I have discovered almost can't be logically explained.

Cool stuff going on here. It makes you want to tell people about it. This knowledge can't die. It has to get out somewhere.

I would recommend the recent Adam Mizner videos I have been watching they may help you to 'click' into this stuff, if you don't want to ask me about it or come see me.
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