Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:25 am

oragami_itto wrote:Seems a little bit off?
Peng is the foundation of the rest of the energies. No peng, no nothing.


How would you describe this foundation? What is it? Why do you need it for the rest of the energies?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:39 am

I think "Peng" and "Jin" get used in an interchangeable way most of the time because the most obvious and useful application of Jin is in an upward direction. Somebody pushes on you and the person bounces back (as we see in all those videos)

Image

Peng is using Jin in an upward direction
Ji is using it away from the body
Lu is using it towards the body
An is using it downwards
"People in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove, 2016
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11364
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:40 am

I described it in my previous post. It's not the structure, it's a byproduct of proper structure, i.e. the ability of the body to handle and manipulate force. It transmits force passively by actively adjusting to changing situations. It's like the force evident in the filled fire hose. Not the water, but the strength of the water.

You need it because it is what is manipulated in order to produce the rest of them. Change the vector on one side or the other and adjust how much peng and lu is expressed and you've got ji, an, lie, cai, zhou, kao.

If tai chi is water, then it's still water supporting a boat. You step on the boat unevenly and it will dump you right over like lie. You jump into the dead center and it'll give and rebound a little like straight peng. A big wave washing over it and washing it away like an.

It's the bones of the art.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1135
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:57 am

oragami_itto wrote:I described it in my previous post. It's not the structure, it's a byproduct of proper structure, i.e. the ability of the body to handle and manipulate force. It transmits force passively by actively adjusting to changing situations. It's like the force evident in the filled fire hose. Not the water, but the strength of the water.


Oh, I forgot you wrote something earlier. Remember it now. Well, I agree... sort of... or to a certain extent anyway. If it’s a byproduct of practice, it means that you need to practice correct. However, I would not call it a byproduct of correct structure, but rather of song/sung. Proper use of song needs a certain understanding of structure before it can be developed, but structure does not produce song.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:34 am

As I said in the previous post, byproduct of proper structure and property relaxation (aka song) and yes song doesn't mean relax but properly relaxed is how I describe it

EDIT: And proper structure/relaxation is cultivated through proper practice, Bao. :D
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1135
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 am

Dmitri wrote:Hey Charles, the late 90s just called, asking for the thread title back... ;D


I think it was the mid-90's. At least it was for me. ;-)
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:49 am

Most of what is being discussed in this thread, I prefer to call "neijin," which is a force that pervades the entire body. "Pengjin" on the other hand is application of force in an upward direction. Adopting this terminology should get rid of a lot of confusion.
Ron Panunto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1282
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Langhorne, PA, USA

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Ting gin is the foundation of Peng gin not the other way around
Just like to answer a question you must first listen to it
Peng is ting with attitude
Just as the fingers must feel the guitar string first before it can be plucked
All energies in tai chi come out of listening
They can be used without listening but this is just dumb force
Hit and miss
It may be many things but it is not tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bhassler on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:23 pm

If I push someone else over, it was Peng Jin. If they push me over, it was brute muscular force.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3055
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:57 pm

I can get behind that to an extent. Listening to ones own frame to cultivate Peng. We were speaking in relation to others which development in my opinion follows Peng
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1135
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:04 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:"Pengjin" on the other hand is application of force in an upward direction. Adopting this terminology should get rid of a lot of confusion.


Moving or applying force in an upward direction is too simplistic IMO. A movement that anyone can do is not called "jin". The term "Jin" implies that it's a skill that needs time and practice to develop.

wayne hansen wrote:Ting gin is the foundation of Peng gin not the other way around
Just like to answer a question you must first listen to it
Peng is ting with attitude


Agreed. 8-)
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby LaoDan on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:35 pm

Bao wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:"Pengjin" on the other hand is application of force in an upward direction. Adopting this terminology should get rid of a lot of confusion.


Moving or applying force in an upward direction is too simplistic IMO. A movement that anyone can do is not called "jin". The term "Jin" implies that it's a skill that needs time and practice to develop.

I do not particularly like describing the 4 primary jin as directions, although I can see how it could make the concept easy for some people. To me, peng is up due to it being produced from the contact of our feet with the ground and out through our structure (our structure is above the point of contact with the ground). Part of the up quality is embodied in Xuling Dingjin (虛領頂勁), or energy to the crown of the head; but there is a certain way that this energy through the body is produced, and we are therefore instructed not to use force to raise the head top. Raising the crown of the head forcefully up in this example would not be peng, although the direction would certainly be up. Just stating the direction “up” is far from satisfactory to describe pengjin, at least for me.
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Dmitri on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:29 pm

charles wrote:
Dmitri wrote:Hey Charles, the late 90s just called, asking for the thread title back... ;D


I think it was the mid-90's. At least it was for me. ;-)

Yeah you were already pretty active on the neijia list when I joined... Think it was '97 or 98...

Holy crap, that's 20 years ago... :o
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9518
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby yeniseri on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:56 pm

I have felt it but am unable to express it or show it based on my inability to find someone who can structurally and didactically show it to me.
It is my inability, no less, to be able to show and break apart the many level of it, despite the youtube or other version of how it is.

Due to the few who can show it (usually family members of great teachers along with blood relative (some), I am not convinced that it is even a valid expression of skill! Not negating the wonderful expression of those who possess that exquisite skill. I have seen enough of non taijiquan skill level practitioners who have given those same experts a 'run for their life" meaning the skill can be taught!
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3149
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:47 pm

yeniseri wrote:I am not convinced that it is even a valid expression of skill!

Agree! If you can't use Peng Jin to kill your opponent, what's the value of training it? Why don't you just spend your training time to develop a powerful punch that can knock down your opponent if you need? Peng is push but Peng + foot scoop = throw.

No dependable finish move = no MA skill

There is a very important long fist training. You stand in a bow-arrow stance and punch one arm out. Your opponent uses his hand to push your forearm side way. If his push can make your

- elbow joint to bend, or shoulder joint to bend, you don't have Peng Jin.
- whole body to move side way, you have Peng Jin.

Even when a boxer punches on heavy bag, if the counter force can cause his

- arm to bend, he doesn't have Peng Jin.
- whole body to bounce back, he has Peng Jin.

To function the whole body as one unit and not to collapse on your joints is trained in all MA styles.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest