Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:45 am

This Damian video seems to be more about peng jin, than ting jin. Paraphrasing, Damian says off balancing then fa jin is not peng. That is cheating and not fast enough for combat. Peng jin is taking in force, then expanding. He uses terminology mentioned in this thread. He says Master Wu (Benjamin) does this to people.

Damian Neve
Published on May 30, 2017

WATCH THE ENTIRE VIDEO-YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING AND STOP TEACHING BS.
Explanation Ti Fang Vs. Ting Jin in Taiji. Taiji listening skill vs. tai chi trick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJiCvWXUdg

From http://www.taijiprobe.com,
Benjamin Wu wrote:I love Taijiquan, that matial art I learned more than thirty years ago from Master Dai Ying , one of the best students of the renowned Tai Ji Master Daquan Zhang from China and I have been very fond of practicing Tai Ji ever since. Currently, I reside in New York, USA. . . .

For now, Wu’s angular frame is closest to the Yang’s original small frame school of Tai Chi.
More videos:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAbnzpa1v52iUWUKT-7XyNA/featured
https://www.youtube.com/user/taijiquanlife/videos


In these videos, it appears Master Wu is teaching things discussed in this thread (e.g., open/close, expanding back, etc.).

Br Wu
Published on Dec 8, 2017

When push hands do not use arm force:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj7nEbRDMzc

Br Wu
Published on Jan 25, 2018

The practical value of taiji form is that it will make people can smoothly converted from one posture to another according to actual needs when pushing a hand, Instead of using a series of form movements to design plans for attacks or self-defense. When push hands, we must trust own sensitive feeling that we have got from Long-period practice , to make a quick and appropriate response, rather than design a fight plan or tricks. Because there is no time to design, but only immediate response.in actual combat。

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pqJt03eXlc
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:59 am

Why would you subject us to that
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby cloudz on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:27 am

Appledog wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from The Five Most Important Taijiquan Skills for Beginners: Peng Jin and Ding Jin, https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/b ... rs-part-2/
Wang Hai Jun, translated by Nick Gudge wrote:Peng Jin – an outward supportive strength the basic skill of taijiquan

Peng Jin (sometimes simply Peng) is the core skill of taijiquan. All other taijiquan skills are based around the skill. It comes from loosening the body (fang song) and stretching. In essence, ‘stretching but not straightening’ the joints. Peng is not a natural or instinctive skill. It comes from a long period of correct practice. Without a good understanding of peng and then considerable training to transform this understanding into this skill in every part of the body, it will not arise. Peng will not be gained by accident. It is systematically trained into the body over time.


Now I understand this. It took a couple of years, and some time off to reflect. Visiting my sifus again. Getting their special instruction. Seeing your previous videos on this thread. And reading this. Now I understand.

Yes, I have had an epiphany. I think at this point what I have to offer is worth monetizing. I am sure absolutely no one here will agree. And despite my mental understanding going into the stratosphere I have become a lazy bum so demonstrating all of this would be difficult but not impossible.

But for the last time I will make the offer, maybe with a time horizon on it. Come here before June, and I will show you what I know. If you don't know what peng is and you are desperate to learn, look around and realize in despair pretty much no one can teach you. But I know the secret now, I figured it all out, and one day I will be a famous tai chi master and I will charge a lot of money for this information.

I figured it all out and my mind has been blown. What my teacher said about remembering past lives is basically true. I must have been tai chi masters many times in the past because what I have discovered almost can't be logically explained.

Cool stuff going on here. It makes you want to tell people about it. This knowledge can't die. It has to get out somewhere.

I would recommend the recent Adam Mizner videos I have been watching they may help you to 'click' into this stuff, if you don't want to ask me about it or come see me.


You are a hoot.. I'm a little unsure if you're half joking or truly believe all that.. not that I'm averse to past lives, I love the idea.

I think Wang gets it right by talking about fan song/ song but is he right to call it peng. that depends i suppose, because in the final analysis what he call it doesn't matter, he could call it appledog soup for all it matters to anyones tai chi skill. If there a kind of jin that arises from song then why not refer to it as song jin. My Wu style teacher under Ma lineage in London refered to song jin never simply song.. It's fairly common for a word to have more than one use, but personally i don't see any need where peng is concerned other than to conform with what authorities have indoctrinated. Having said that stuff it's good this thread has resulted in an epiphany for you. Just remember todays epiphany is tomorrows what was all the fuss about. What is all the fuss about on this thread really, it's fairly basic stuff that a lot of people treat like high level rocket science.

The thing of it is, is that for most tai chi folks there's not a very clear understanding of song other than some psuedo understanding of "relax". So it often doesn't arouse any suspicion in them that so many are calling it's result peng.. When it comes to nei gong/ nei jia of which we would accept tai chi into i expect, there's a very clear representation of the result of song and what it means and is. It would be foolish to think or believe things like song and peng don't support eachother and bleed into eachother. So when say someone pushes into your structure and you 'do peng' your song jin doesn't just evaporate and get replaced, it's always there or at least should be.

The result of peng - the real, one and only peng - is to sever someones root/ connection to the ground. It is absolutley a vital tai chi martial skill. Expanding and contracting exist in TCC of course but really the correct terminology for it is open and close.. Isn't it obvious that people have been calling the expanding of the body and it's jin: peng. Again I will repeat i think that is not needed. Forces do need to be balanced (where there is up there is down etc) in opposing directions and that does create a feeling of an omni directional expanding force. Actually come to think of it pulling silk combined with song results in that certain condition of soft-tautness that never leaves. This isn't the one and the same use of skilled force that severs peoples connection to the ground though. The classic are very clear how peng effect an opponent; that is absolutely ALL you really need, to know you're on the right track. the details of how are not rocket science; Simply You have learnt to do it or not.

The lid of the arrow box opens and closes as the horse gallops along; rising open then covering itself. If you re look at the song of peng it mentions a quick sharp closing action - or words to that effect. To float and then cover; like a wave rising then crashing down: that knocks the opponent down. But the first and primary action is to float (rising jin has to be involved), that is peng, exactly what one does straight after is pretty variable and optional; but it's really just another open and close, peng is opening, then naturally - to tai chi - a closing action should follow. This is one way I undertsand using peng at least.

Just the same, I think we all bow deeply to your channeling of the old masters! ;D
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby cloudz on Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:06 am

The Songs consists of 140 characters;
each character is true and the meaning is complete.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Trick on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:33 am

Appledog wrote:I figured it all out and my mind has been blown. What my teacher said about remembering past lives is basically true. I must have been tai chi masters many times in the past because what I have discovered almost can't be logically explained.
.

If you really really really was a great Tai-Chi master you would be an immortal now living on PENGlai island eating golden peaches not bothering yourself any about Tai-Chi...But of course you say you have become a lazy bum so maybe you are halfway to the island 8-)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:34 am

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from The Five Most Important Taijiquan Skills for Beginners: Peng Jin and Ding Jin, https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/b ... rs-part-2/
Wang Hai Jun, translated by Nick Gudge wrote:Peng Jin – an outward supportive strength the basic skill of taijiquan

Peng Jin (sometimes simply Peng) is the core skill of taijiquan. All other taijiquan skills are based around the skill. It comes from loosening the body (fang song) and stretching. In essence, ‘stretching but not straightening’ the joints. Peng is not a natural or instinctive skill. It comes from a long period of correct practice. Without a good understanding of peng and then considerable training to transform this understanding into this skill in every part of the body, it will not arise. Peng will not be gained by accident. It is systematically trained into the body over time.

MAD-DECODE
Published on Jul 23, 2016

What does "fang song" mean? How can we train our body?

Master Yang Jun answers these questions in a part of the interview that will be published very soon in complete version in our "Lead to gold" Magazine and DECODE channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiv8QVISwI4

From Chen Style Taijiquan Practice Tip #02 - Fangsong | Relax/Loosen Up, https://www.facebook.com/bafangwushusg/ ... S_TIMELINE:
Bafang Wushu Training Centre - Singapore on December 13, 2014 wrote:One of the important foundations is to remove tension (or Fangsong), since in most cases people are overly tense in the beginning. Being relaxed does not mean flooppy (that is negative tension). In both cases of too much tension or too floppy this causes inability to circulate freely.

Like a trampoline, if the tension is too much one cannot bounce if too loose also cannot bounce.

The circular motions of Taijiquan sought through relaxation, emphasize the existance of Peng Jin (like the right tension of the trampoline so that the harder one tries the higher one goes).

There are four key considerations to achieve Fangsong.

1. Calm mind to achieve physical sensitivity
2. Loosen and stretch, activate all the joints of the body
3. Sinking and rooting of the body where necessary
4. Ability to move with ease (balance of flexibility and Strength)
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:12 am

The clearest explanation and demonstration I'm aware of is in the "What is Fajin" section of this interview. https://youtu.be/rEqsv3vCjVY?t=7m6s



I'd summarize it by saying that peng is what rises to fill you when you're song and sunk. :D
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

These 2 clips show the opposite of "push". The best place for your opponent is "in your arms". To bend your opponent's spine side way is the key. If you can achieve that, your opponent's structure is destroyed.



I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby everything on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:32 pm

these are great clips.

since you presumably don't want to be twisted/thrown, the next logical question (for this thread) seems to be:

will your "peng" help you with the anti-throw/anti-twist?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:04 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

These 2 clips show the opposite of "push". The best place for your opponent is "in your arms". To bend your opponent's spine side way is the key. If you can achieve that, your opponent's structure is destroyed.





I'm still allergy to "push".

Your forum signature matches this post. Because, you do not instruct to use push.

But, my reply was only in response to your post where you instructed and demonstrated push several times. Any doctor will tell you if you have allergy to push, then don't push:
marvin8 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Here is an example that A borrows B's yielding force.

1. A pushes, B yields.
2. A borrows B's yielding force and pushes again. . . .

Here is an example that A borrows B's resisting force.

1. A pushes, B resists.
2. A borrows B's resisting force and change push into pull, B resists again.
3. A borrows B's resisting force and change pull back into push. . . .

I'm still allergy to "push".

I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

Your response was to a video I posted where peng was practiced in push hands. Why use peng? Answer: To seize/off balance/borrow force of opponent before committing yourself to a counter. Here is a Shuai Jiao player using push to borrow opponent's force and setup hip throw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZzfUnbHorg
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:55 pm

everything wrote:will your "peng" help you with the anti-throw/anti-twist?

The best way to counter a throw is to use the vibration force. Your opponent pulls, you resist. Your opponent borrows your resisting force and pushes, you resists again. In other words, your body can change force back and force into the opposite directions faster than your opponent can take advantage on you.

Is Peng similar to

- vibration force (work on opposite directions), or
- bulldozer force (only work on 1 direction)?

Also, the question is can you develop "Peng" on your neck? When your opponent's hay-maker smashes on the side of your head, can you still use Peng on your neck and maintain your spine structure?
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:32 pm

marvin8 wrote:This Damian video seems to be more about peng jin, than ting jin. Paraphrasing, Damian says off balancing then fa jin is not peng. That is cheating and not fast enough for combat. Peng jin is taking in force, then expanding. He uses terminology mentioned in this thread. He says Master Wu (Benjamin) does this to people.


The way I mean ti fang is the way Cheng Man Ching describes it in 13 chapters.

If we think of the "body" as a rubber ball, peng is the surface tension of the ball.

If incoming force comes in at any sort of oblique angle, we can easily roll the ball and divert the force to the side, up, or down, or any combination of those.

If force comes in at a direct perpendicular angle, the surface of the ball deforms. Since we're talking about a human body, anatomically we yield into the dantien and store the energy of the incoming force like drawing a bow. When the energy is spent, we release. That's the fa jing.

Peng jing is the elastic surface tension that makes the rest of the techniques possible. The sphere is a bit abstract for some folks, I guess.

Cheng Man Ching wrote:There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following
diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly
from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness.
When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen,
which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack,
uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:17 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
The way I mean ti fang is the way Cheng Man Ching describes it in 13 chapters.

If we think of the "body" as a rubber ball, peng is the surface tension of the ball.

If incoming force comes in at any sort of oblique angle, we can easily roll the ball and divert the force to the side, up, or down, or any combination of those.

If force comes in at a direct perpendicular angle, the surface of the ball deforms. Since we're talking about a human body, anatomically we yield into the dantien and store the energy of the incoming force like drawing a bow. When the energy is spent, we release. That's the fa jing.

Peng jing is the elastic surface tension that makes the rest of the techniques possible. The sphere is a bit abstract for some folks, I guess.



Image
http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

outlines what you posted by one of his direct students

“For quite a few years, I have been reading and re-reading Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises,1 written by my first T’ai-Chi teacher, Cheng Man-ch’ing (1900–1975). I consider most of this book to be very clear and filled with valuable information. However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand.

This essay ends with Prof. Cheng saying,

“This treatise reveals the secret of many generations of T’ai Chi Ch’uan masters. I hope the practitioner will pay special attention to this!”

He evidently considered this essay, which deals in part with neutralization, to be very important and chose to use physics as the main expository tool.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:09 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:This Damian video seems to be more about peng jin, than ting jin. Paraphrasing, Damian says off balancing then fa jin is not peng. That is cheating and not fast enough for combat. Peng jin is taking in force, then expanding. He uses terminology mentioned in this thread. He says Master Wu (Benjamin) does this to people.


The way I mean ti fang is the way Cheng Man Ching describes it in 13 chapters.

If we think of the "body" as a rubber ball, peng is the surface tension of the ball.

If incoming force comes in at any sort of oblique angle, we can easily roll the ball and divert the force to the side, up, or down, or any combination of those.

If force comes in at a direct perpendicular angle, the surface of the ball deforms. Since we're talking about a human body, anatomically we yield into the dantien and store the energy of the incoming force like drawing a bow. When the energy is spent, we release. That's the fa jing.

Peng jing is the elastic surface tension that makes the rest of the techniques possible. The sphere is a bit abstract for some folks, I guess.


Cheng Man Ching wrote:There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following
diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly
from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness.
When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen,
which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack,
uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

Stephen Goodson demonstrates Ti Fang as off balancing, then fa jin @ 13:36:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZifOHyKc2gE&t=13m36s

Here is a previous RSF thread on Ti Fang and Stephen answering responses, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25225&st=0&sk=t&sd=a.

An external MAs can off balance and push without any peng jin, which is Damian's point.

Your definition of Cheng Man Ching is similar to what Damian covers: rotating at the point of contact, store incoming force into dantien, elasticity, etc.

At 26:03 of Damian video:
Damian Neve on May 30, 2017 wrote:This barrier called peng is the joints expanding in every direction and the ligaments holding vector deviation that wave in my bones, you’ll see me rock back. Then, I’m going to return the wave. It’s not a rock trick. I just flip the wave against the contact points. If she’s contact here, I split the contact point in half. Take the energy up one channel and redirect it down the other. I can go through her yin channel or her yang channel. For ease of explaining, the outer side of the body and ulna is what I consider to be yang. The back is yang. The inside where the arteries are is yin. It is not the only way to look at it. So when someone puts pressure, I go through my yang channel, outside channel, and redirect them to my inside channel. I feel pressure on the top. So, I bring it down to the bottom (rotating contact point). . . .
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:33 am

windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
The way I mean ti fang is the way Cheng Man Ching describes it in 13 chapters.

If we think of the "body" as a rubber ball, peng is the surface tension of the ball.

If incoming force comes in at any sort of oblique angle, we can easily roll the ball and divert the force to the side, up, or down, or any combination of those.

If force comes in at a direct perpendicular angle, the surface of the ball deforms. Since we're talking about a human body, anatomically we yield into the dantien and store the energy of the incoming force like drawing a bow. When the energy is spent, we release. That's the fa jing.

Peng jing is the elastic surface tension that makes the rest of the techniques possible. The sphere is a bit abstract for some folks, I guess.



Image
http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

outlines what you posted by one of his direct students

“For quite a few years, I have been reading and re-reading Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises,1 written by my first T’ai-Chi teacher, Cheng Man-ch’ing (1900–1975). I consider most of this book to be very clear and filled with valuable information. However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand.

This essay ends with Prof. Cheng saying,

“This treatise reveals the secret of many generations of T’ai Chi Ch’uan masters. I hope the practitioner will pay special attention to this!”

He evidently considered this essay, which deals in part with neutralization, to be very important and chose to use physics as the main expository tool.
Robert Chuckrow


This diagram accompanies the particular text in question.
Image

Incidentally, K'an, "the Abyss" is the trigram traditionally associated with Ji/Press.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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