The "Fake" stuff...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:05 pm

Subitai wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:
Subitai wrote:Saw this posted today... For the OP, all I can say is that i'm qualified enough to at least have an informed opinion about this kind of stuff.




Not quite sure what you mean by that
And what is that opinion


Well I took an acting class long ago (not that it helped) and the instructor said that the public "automatically and instrinsically" (ie knows in a natural way) what is GOOD acting or not. He heavily implied that it's critical to pass their scrutiny. Now if the adoring public wields that type of power, how much more would a professional in the field be able to judge?

I started in 78"...i've never really stopped and i've fought and taught as a profession since the 90's. It's not as if I have another job like being a plumber and "oh by the way I also do kung fu". I was being nice when I implied that I had an opinion (that implication I thought was obvious) . But if you were to force my opinion, then I call fake and I gave my reason as to why I think I can say so.


On here nothing is obvious
I thought that's what you meant but just wanted to check
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:25 pm

cloudz wrote:
Franklin wrote:
cloudz wrote:It doesn't matter, just because one guy can beat another doesn't follow that that first guy can't or doesn't post nonsense or stuff that is dubious let's say. They are not directly related.



by that logic..
even if people put stuff up that is dubious or nonsense
then it would stand to reason that it doesn't mean that they don't have anything good to offer...


Yes definitely they may have good material, some of them. You say it like that logic is something novel.
Interesting.



seems novel in that I have never heard or seen anyone crying fake fake fake!!
say-- this looks fake but still they might have something worthwhile to teach...
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:26 pm

windwalker wrote:
Franklin wrote:
a teacher that is teaching the real stuff...
if he has a student who is not up to it
should he continue to teach that person and collect their money
or should he kick the student out

if he continues to teach that person-
is that not fake teaching?


The teacher is teaching according to the students ability.

The student will continue to stay as long
as he/she feels they'er getting some value out of it.

I've known some teachers not to teach things because they felt that either it was not needed
or the student/students where not of the right character. For some teachers the character issue
wasn't a major problem as they also had ties to the gangs that came to them for training.
Loyalty was the issue.

In what some might call traditional schools, the students not wanted would be made to leave
on there own....lots of different ways to to do this.



well-- i am more getting at

if we are going to police the area and say that people are teaching fake stuff--
then we should also condemn the real teachers who are producing students with no skill

traditionally -- teacher will show something 3x
if the student doesn't get it they are then ignored and won't waste anymore time with this student
not a good business model

-- by the way- i have had teachers like this
and one teacher who i saw turn away more people that came wanting to learn then he accepted
by just looking at them when they came asking for lessons


so if a teacher is wasting time on students that won't get it
just to collect teaching fees...
then why don't we say they are promoting the "fake"?
Last edited by Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:34 pm

Subitai wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:
Subitai wrote:Saw this posted today... For the OP, all I can say is that i'm qualified enough to at least have an informed opinion about this kind of stuff.




Not quite sure what you mean by that
And what is that opinion


Well I took an acting class long ago (not that it helped) and the instructor said that the public "automatically and instrinsically" (ie knows in a natural way) what is GOOD acting or not. He heavily implied that it's critical to pass their scrutiny. Now if the adoring public wields that type of power, how much more would a professional in the field be able to judge?

I started in 78"...i've never really stopped and i've fought and taught as a profession since the 90's. It's not as if I have another job like being a plumber and "oh by the way I also do kung fu". I was being nice when I implied that I had an opinion (that implication I thought was obvious) . But if you were to force my opinion, then I call fake and I gave my reason as to why I think I can say so.



ok-- so you 2 are calling this out as fake?

what did you accomplish by doing that on this forum?
what did you hope to achieve? and what did you actually achieve?
Last edited by Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:43 pm

Franklin wrote:
well-- i am more getting at

if we are going to police the area and say that people are teaching fake stuff--
then we should also condemn the real teachers who are producing students with no skill

I don't participate in either, I see no value in it. I feel time would be better spent on understanding what some
do, and either how or why....if its intresting enough.
As to skill, its up to the student to attain it, as much as their talent and desire allow for.
Its been said all a teacher can do is show one the door, its up to ones self ot walk through it.


traditionally -- teacher will show something 3x
if the student doesn't get it they are then ignored and won't waste anymore time with this student
not a good business model

We must have had some of the same teachers. The mantis teacher in korea that I practiced with would show something 3 times.
Each time he would show it in a slightly different way hoping one could pick it up, after 3 times he would move on to something else. His teaching style was more structured to helping one develop their own kung fu within the style not necessarily what he would do or did..Mike, my hop gar teacher thought that I would be good at iron broom sweeps..So while every one else was doing something else, this is what I would train....Once arriving at the our gym I was not allowed to get up out of the sweep position,,I hated and truth be told never really got good at it...Other students would speclize according to their skill sets.


-- by the way- i have had teachers like this
and one teacher who i saw turn away more people that came wanting to learn then he accepted
by just looking at them when they came asking for lessons

In China, people would stand at the steps leading to where my taiji teacher taught. They would stay there until he noticed them and asked them to come and train...He did not ask for money, nor did he charge for teacher but did accept gifts from those who trained with him in the traditional way.He did have rules, unwritten ones....One was that one could only have one teacher at a time....He felt that if one studied from different teachers maybe they felt what he was teaching was either not good enough or maybe to easy.....I've noted this in other teachers also.


so if a teacher is wasting time on students that won't get it
just to collect teaching fees...
then why don't we say they are promoting the "fake"?


I'm probably the wrong person to ask about this. I don't accept money but am forced to by some who I work with. With some groups
when I did have a fee structure set up, understanding they weren't going to get it. I refused to accept the fee feeling that I was unable to help them to better understand the work...

What I consider to be fake is deliberate misrepresentation either of skill, facts or anything else related to the teaching unrelated to whether I agree with it out not. This is my understanding and what I mean by the word fake...I might not like it or agree with it but this alone would not make it fake in my book.

While I respect others training, if they are misrepresenting something not related to me. I'ts not my concern I see no value in pointing it out....I don't get why others do, but they do :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:48 pm

wayne hansen wrote:https://www.facebook.com/dumbassmartialarts/videos/943069625882252/


Its been shown before the teacher has a standing invitation for those wanting to understand it to come visit him.

You think the video is a fake, do you?

For those who are sceptical of the pushing hand and striking hand videos, I absolutely understand where you are coming from and of your scepticism. Since you have not had the pleasure of doing power push hand with any one of us, your opinion is obvious and totally expected. But, wouldn't you rather have much more solid opinion of what we do, after having a direct experience with 'dynamic' power push hand?

Wouldn't that add a certain credibility to your sceptical criticism? If someone were to ask you of your scepticism and based on what evidences, how will you answer it? Because what? Because of what you happen to perceive...? What logical explanation do you have for your scepticism? What...because what we do doesn't seem to jive with the law of physics? How do you know?

Do you think you are more scientifically knowledgeable than my students who have Ph. D. in nuclear physics and string theory physics? You find it ridiculous because of the nonsensical bouncing of the person getting pushed? What makes you think that you won't bounce as ridiculously as well?


http://www.nytaichi.com/sparringvideo.htm
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:51 pm

I didn't hope to achieve anything
A number of clips had been put up here that were on dumbass martial arts
That one came up later so I posted it
I was keeping the community informed as to what was happening
Now what did you achieve by calling me out and verballing me
If I started denouncing all the fakes in CMA I would do little else


To windwalker


It may have been shown on here before
I was just showing that it had been highlighted in another forum as were the other clips in this thread
It's easy to offer challenges over the Internet it means little
Not many will bother to travel to where the person is and if they do there is no surety he will then accept the challenge
All that said the clip is what it is and if you do this sort of demo expect people to critique it
The last person I accepted a challenge from ran straight to the police and swore out an agrivated assault charge on me
I am a little reticent to engage since that day
Last edited by wayne hansen on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Subitai on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:19 pm

Franklin,
Pretty much what Wayne said in his 1st paragraph of his last post.

Also, your original post for this thread was just begging for an example...think about it. If nobody put up an example for a discussion, how boring would that be???
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:41 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
To windwalker


It may have been shown on here before
I was just showing that it had been highlighted in another forum as were the other clips in this thread
It's easy to offer challenges over the Internet it means little
Not many will bother to travel to where the person is and if they do there is no surety he will then accept the challenge
All that said the clip is what it is and if you do this sort of demo expect people to critique it
The last person I accepted a challenge from ran straight to the police and swore out an agrivated assault charge on me
I am a little reticent to engage since that day


I don't bother with them myself,,,,no point life is short.
If I have questions or need to find out something I go directly to the source
not post about it on line.

I asked if you had any clips showing some of what you talked about. Some of your work....

I see no point in posting clips of what some might feel is fake
or what ever. Others might....donno...

As to critiques, the point is they don't don't critique only say fake and then post about it....no discussion.
They talk about why one should believe them because of ect. not whats shown in the clip...
not only for this clip most clips similar in nature.

a good commentary and example from Robp who had met the teacher in question.

From my observations everyone reacts in a different way - some quite weird looking (which they acknowledge). HWK could certainly push me back from the position he set me in - but as he said that is not really the point of the exercise, how far you push someone, it's for the benefit of the pushed not the pusher.

It does seem to produce some odd reactions in some students. It's a development tool, not "push hands" in the usual sense and seems to be unique to the Yang Sau Cheung lineage

I also found HWK to be a very friendly and approachable guy who knows his stuff when it comes to the Gin Soon Chu lineage. It's certainly different from the "standard" Yang style in the UK - more internal and power based I'd say than just forms forms forms. Though I've never seen how it crosses over into application viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12833
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:47 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I didn't hope to achieve anything
A number of clips had been put up here that were on dumbass martial arts
That one came up later so I posted it
I was keeping the community informed as to what was happening
Now what did you achieve by calling me out and verballing me
If I started denouncing all the fakes in CMA I would do little else



sorry

when I wrote:

ok-- so you 2 are calling this out as fake

what did you accomplish by doing that on this forum?
what did you hope to achieve? and what did you actually achieve?



I should have been more clear
and written --

ok-- so you 2 are calling this out as fake?

what did you accomplish by posting that on this thread?
what did you hope to achieve? and do you feel that you achieved that goal?


the bolded stuff is just to show what I changed
not for any emphasis on that part



and you already answered my questions
which is what I hoped to achieve...
Last edited by Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Franklin on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:50 pm

Subitai wrote:Franklin,
Pretty much what Wayne said in his 1st paragraph of his last post.

Also, your original post for this thread was just begging for an example...think about it. If nobody put up an example for a discussion, how boring would that be???



hahahaha..

;D
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:18 am

Windy as I said before tell me what u want to see
I could get my students to react like they do in these clips
I don't because I have too much respect for them
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby RobP3 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:19 am

windwalker wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:https://www.facebook.com/dumbassmartialarts/videos/943069625882252/


Its been shown before the teacher has a standing invitation for those wanting to understand it to come visit him.



Yep, been there, done that with the NY teacher :) I also visited many others, in fact I spent the last half and the 90s and beyond visiting many different schools and teachers, some of whom you have put clips up of here. I can say, hand on heart, that the "empty force" as explained and demonstrated by those teachers failed 100% of the time on myself or friends/students who were with me. Back in the day it even failed with my own teacher, prior to me leaving him, when he started getting into all this stuff, all explained as "chi energy". There was some interesting stuff from Vincent Chu, which he always stressed was purely on a meditation level. He explained to me that what you see in clips are things that only work between teacher and student, they do not go beyond that.

The only no contact work I have experienced "for real" is that demonstrated by those who explain it in purely psychological terms, ranging from basic "flinch reaction" to more subtle manipulation of intention and awareness. Or, on a more physical level, the control of tension / fear in another person.

So yep, BTDT.
Last edited by RobP3 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby cloudz on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:33 am

Franklin wrote:

seems novel in that I have never heard or seen anyone crying fake fake fake!!
say-- this looks fake but still they might have something worthwhile to teach...


Ok well you can hear it now from me. And thanks Subitai for giving me the perfect example.
I think that NYC guy looks fairly tough, relatively - he could probably handle a certain proportion of KF guys ok.
He is from Yang family disciple lineage so has plenty of good things to teach me and or show me.
And last he likes to partake in demos and training that I would agree look "fake" (embellished unrealistically) which I would like to experience on myself.
George

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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:02 am

RobP3 wrote:
Yep, been there, done that :) I also visited many others, in fact I spent the last half and the 90s and beyond visiting many different schools and teachers, some of whom you have put clips up of here. I can say, hand on heart, that the "empty force" as explained and demonstrated by those teachers failed 100% of the time on myself or friends/students who were with me. Back in the day it even failed with my own teacher, prior to me leaving him, when he started getting into all this stuff, all explained as "chi energy". There was some interesting stuff from Vincent Chu, which he always stressed was purely on a meditation level. He explained to me that what you see in clips are things that only work between teacher and student, they do not go beyond that.

The only no contact work I have experienced "for real" is that demonstrated by those who explain it in purely psychological terms, ranging from basic "flinch reaction" to more subtle manipulation of intention and awareness. Or, on a more physical level, the control of tension / fear in another person.

So yep, BTDT.


Which is all good, I too have visited teachers and have come to different conclusions about what, how and why it works
I've spent the last 10 or so yrs looking into this and have come up with my own thoughts reasonings about it. ....as I've always said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same. No need to go into that here.

The post was on "fake stuff" what happens when someone considers something fake and the other does not....

" He explained to me that what you see in clips are things that only work between teacher and student, they do not go beyond that."

Not in my experience but so what, what does it matter.

"The only no contact work I have experienced "for real" is that demonstrated by those who explain it in purely psychological terms, ranging from basic "flinch reaction" to more subtle manipulation of intention and awareness. Or, on a more physical level, the control of tension / fear in another person. "

So in essence the ones you agree with that did work considered as valid is what you agree with.

In my own work I've found a way of looking at it outside of the verbiage that's normally used, that meets the requirements in explaining the what, why and how and conforms with what the chinese model uses and expresses it in.

Kudos for going out and finding your own answers.

The OP

" so my question is -- if you post other people's shit and say its fake...
and then someone comes along and hands you your ass..
does that mean your shit was fake all along?
"

All it means is that one is commenting on things they may not understand.
Those that know tend not to comment publicly understanding for the most part there's not much point in doing so.

As is often the case the students did study other arts/styles ect before finding something that answered their questions
what is shown is their training, just as those training in parks and such,,,not much really to do with ones own....I still don't get the point of commenting on it or pointing it out, with out some reasonings behind the what, how, and why its not possible or is possible...
.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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