When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:59 am

When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back. The reasons are:

You want to

- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.

IMO, the boxing guard that you use both arms to protect your head is too conservative.

Image

You want your fist to be close to your opponent's head. You don't want your fists to be close to your own head.

Image

Here is an example that A punches, B moves in. What's your opinion on this strategy?

Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby Giles on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:52 am

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back. The reasons are:

You want to
- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.


Of course, fully agree. Not that it will always work out that way, but it's desirable. It's one essential usage of, for instance, Fair Lady Works Shuttles: stepping into the attack with an expanding and rolling 'peng' arm to intercept and divert.

Here demonstrated in a friendly and relatively rehearsed way from 2:40 to 2:55.
(Ignore the stuff before 2:40. This is an old promotional video from some years ago, both guys would do and show many things differently nowadays :P . But the 'fair lady' bit still has merits, I think).



Here the move ends with a push ;). In a self-defence situation, the rear hand should usually strike as deep as possible into the torso or face/head, of course, instead of projecting away.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:33 pm

Makes perfect sense to me. That is how I was taught taiji.
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:05 pm

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back. The reasons are:

You want to

- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.

IMO, the boxing guard that you use both arms to protect your head is too conservative.

Here is an example that A punches, B moves in. What's your opinion on this strategy?



Its not being demoed by someone who can box or knows how, which is why the "boxing guard" shown is used as a starting
point for beginning level boxers. If one is in range of a boxer and does not know how to cover, they'er gonna get hit...
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:32 pm

windwalker wrote:Its not being demoed by someone who can box or knows how, which is why the "boxing guard" shown is used as a starting
point for beginning level boxers. If one is in range of a boxer and does not know how to cover, they'er gonna get hit...

The US anti-missile system should be set on the coast line and not in Washington DC. You can protect your head away from you. You don't need to protect you head that close from your head.

IMO, you should not give your opponent enough space to generate speed and power for his punches. In order to "squeeze" your opponent's space, you have to move in.

Here is an example to use double hay-makers to deal with your opponent's straight punches. You try to make the contact point as close to your opponent's head and as far away from your head as possible.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby LaoDan on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:33 pm

Wu Yuxiang’s (武禹襄) “Four Word Secret Formula” (四字秘訣 Si Zi Mi Jue) indicates four places where an opponent’s power can be controlled. Zhang Yun (张云) gives a translation with explanations and examples of the four words in the following article:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Qi-In_TJQ/Qi-in-TJQ1.html

I illustrate these four terms by using an American football quarterback analogy. Fu (敷 covering) would be like sacking the quarterback; making him uncomfortable and unstable, and preventing them from even starting to pass the football. Gai (盖 blanketing) would be like hitting the quarterback’s arm on the backward preparatory motion, causing a fumble. Dui (對 intercepting) would be like hitting the arm in its forward motion and disrupting the pass for an off target incompletion. The thrown ball travels using momentum and is no longer able to be controlled or changed by the quarterback, but tun (吞 swallowing) is like catching (gaining control of) the ball for an interception.

I think that all four have their place, and which is best depends on the specifics of the interaction. But in general, I would agree with the OP.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby Subitai on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:24 pm

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back. The reasons are:

You want to

- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.

IMO, the boxing guard that you use both arms to protect your head is too conservative.

Image

You want your fist to be close to your opponent's head. You don't want your fists to be close to your own head.

Image

Here is an example that A punches, B moves in. What's your opinion on this strategy?



What's your opinion on mixing it up John? How about I use your method in sparring 3Xs in a row and just when my opponent thinks i'm going to do that again... I use a yielding stragety to throw him off his game. Is there no room in your game plan for this?
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:02 pm

Subitai wrote:What's your opinion on mixing it up John? How about I use your method in sparring 3Xs in a row and just when my opponent thinks i'm going to do that again... I use a yielding stragety to throw him off his game. Is there no room in your game plan for this?

The only concern that I have is when I yield, I may give my opponent too much free space to generate his fast and powerful punch. "Yield" is the opposite of "squeeze". I want to control my opponent's "upper arm". Yield may only allow me to control his forearm (or wrist) which is not good enough for my purpose.

I like simple and quick solution.

- You attack me.
- I move in.
- Either you knock me down, or
- I take you down.

When my opponent punches me, his arm is not protect his head. I want to get his head right at that moment.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby bartekb on Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:28 pm

johnwang wrote:- You attack me.
- I move in.
- Either you knock me down, or
- I take you down.

this is a very good strategy
if you fight someone with a plan - ie. not idiot - and wait - the attacker will continue on his plan - why give him a chance?
MArcelo Garcia once said he doesnt study his opponents before a fight - he is not interested in how they fight - he wants them to fight how he fights.
Last edited by bartekb on Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby willie on Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:48 pm

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back. The reasons are:

You want to

- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.

IMO, the boxing guard that you use both arms to protect your head is too conservative.

Image

You want your fist to be close to your opponent's head. You don't want your fists to be close to your own head.

Image

Here is an example that A punches, B moves in. What's your opinion on this strategy?



Hi John, There's nothing wrong with your move, it's good. Just like any other move though, it's just another tool.
Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't quite fit the situation.
I was taught that exact same boxing guard position when I trained MMA,
It's a great defensive position. I actually brought up the same question as you suggested. Why not
extend the arms a bit and then it would be possible to deflect the strikes before they can reach?
My old Shihan explained it in a very basic way. "Sometimes you will find yourself overwhelmed".
We can not predict every move that our opponent will make or make any assumption of their skill level.
If you watch this video you should see why it is important to know more ways and have more tools.
Maybe, look for areas where your moves might or might not fit.
willie

 

Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:17 pm

Nice clip.

The thing with boxers for those who do not or have not boxed is that often people don't understand the timing differential.
They tend to feel they will have more time to do something based on working with people who are not boxers, or who have never boxed.
A bad mistake to make....Boxers do not punch with their arms, they use whole body although in a different way then when this terminology is used by some in IMA...

Found this out in my younger days. The other point IME its better to learn how to move the body then the hands. If a boxer can touch you they can hit you..
Better know and understand range, distancing, and space coupled with timing. Which is one the reasons why long arm tends to work well.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:04 pm

windwalker wrote: If a boxer can touch you they can hit you.

What's your favor strategy to deal with a boxer?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:07 pm

willie wrote:it is important to know more ways and have more tools.

Agree! The

- front toe punch kick to the chest,
- foot sweep,
- 3 punches to the face,
- hay-maker to the side of the head,

are also my favor tools.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:19 pm

"
johnwang"
What's your favor strategy to deal with a boxer?

Long arm as used in the lama hop gar style allows one to be outside of their punching range while they'er still within yours.
A lot of it has to do with controlling the range, distancing and space through the use of foot work and body positioning.
This worked very well for me as younger guy,,,,After mixing it with some that did box or had boxed I learned very quickly what
worked and what did not...

The other thing that should be noted, by their rule set they are not allowed to target the arms, not something they condition nor train for....Kill the arm they tend to drop it, then kill the body....If you manage to move past their range into the clinch which seems to be what is shown this too is also a good move but as willie, pointed out getting there is not so easy...

The guard you noted, but seem to feel its used for something else, is a beginning level movement predicated against not having the time to defend, ie being overwhelmed, always a good idea to protect ones head. IME many people seem to not really understand the timing of a good striker and so tend to stay in range feeling they have time....They do not. :P
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:51 am

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back.

Sort of disagree. One should remain outside of a boxer's punching range in order to not play his game, until one has an advantage (e.g., position, seize, balance, etc.). Also on the streets, an opponent can be concealing a knife.

johnwang wrote:The reasons are:

You want to

- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.

“You want to fight" in your range (e.g., grappling, kicking), not in a boxer’s punching range. It's better to not play his game (trade punches)/enter range, until you have an advantage.

johnwang wrote:IMO, the boxing guard that you use both arms to protect your head is too conservative.

Image

You want your fist to be close to your opponent's head. You don't want your fists to be close to your own head.

In the video of that image, he is demonstrating that guard when someone is close and trying to punch one's face. A typical middle range boxing guard has the hands more exended.

"You want your fist" hitting "your opponent's head." Otherwise, your opponent can punch you while your arm is extended. A typical MMA move is right hand to head control.

johnwang wrote:
Here is an example that A punches, B moves in. What's your opinion on this strategy?


If your "strategy" includes wrapping a boxer's jab as in the above video, then the strategy is based on a false premise: you can wrap a boxer's jab before he can retract it. At :06 and :12, your opponent is holding his jab and other arm out and standing still, in order for you to wrap his arm and head.

In Xu Xiaodong (MMA) vs Wei Lei, Wei extended his arms, trying to bridge, throughout the fight, which resulted in Wei getting hit in the face and knocked down:
Image
Image

In the recent Michael Chandler vs Goiti Yamauchi (BJJ, etc.) fight, Yamauchi used an extended guard throughout the fight, without a significant effect on Chandler. Chandler won the fight:
https://www.mma-core.com/videos/Michael_Chandler_vs_Goiti_Yamauchi_Bellator_192_Full_Fight_Part_1/10205398

johnwang wrote:What's your favor strategy to deal with a boxer?

My favor is to stay outside of a boxer's range utilizing low kicks, at least until I have an advantage.

Octavio discusses how you can accelerate to your opponent’s leg targets from long range. Octavio's JKD movements resemble fencing footwork however the reality is theories and principles are actually applied during an actual application. Application won't work unless you train your basics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wztHQGowYaw

Published on Apr 16, 2015

How would a champion boxer do against a champion kickboxer? Several boxers have stepped up to the challenge, and the results are mostly the same. The weapons they faced were in direct relation with the way they stand, move, and attack. What worked in one sport must be adapted before it becomes efficient or effective in another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ7bbmjtAB0
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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