Four wheel drive

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Four wheel drive

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:32 am

Lately, I have experienced that much unnecessary tension and effort can be spent in trying to generate more force from a single major root joint (shoulders and hips). When shoulder and hip joints stay open and mobile, they form a composite force, analogous to a four wheel drive function. The four major joints relate to each other, assisting and completing the actions of each other, without losing their individual functions.
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby charles on Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:47 am

Six Harmonies/coordinations, three internal and three external. One of the three external is coordinating the actions of hips and shoulders. In "internal" arts, the shoulders don't generate force, they transmit it. Generally, also true of the hips, though opinions/methods vary.
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby Dmitri on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:19 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:...trying to generate more force from a single major root joint (shoulders and hips)


Joints can't "generate force", that's a biomechanical impossibility. Just gonna leave that there, and quietly tiptoe out of the room... :D
Last edited by Dmitri on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:05 am

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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:06 am

until there is turning in the joints, there is no force being generated. The muscles cause the joints to turn, which generates the force. The more joints that are turning, the greater the force. If we are not training the joints then why do any movement or postures at all? If we are training the joints then why try to avoid the reality of their function in relation to force. Bones transmit force, but without joints turning their is no action at all. Is it not generally accepted that taiji forms and the like are functionally a series of exercises to increase range of motion and strength in the joints, and that the martial application is the application of multiple precise joint rotations?
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:35 am

rojcewiczj wrote:until there is turning in the joints, there is no force being generated. The muscles cause the joints to turn, which generates the force. The more joints that are turning, the greater the force. If we are not training the joints then why do any movement or postures at all? If we are training the joints then why try to avoid the reality of their function in relation to force. Bones transmit force, but without joints turning their is no action at all. Is it not generally accepted that taiji forms and the like are functionally a series of exercises to increase range of motion and strength in the joints, and that the martial application is the application of multiple precise joint rotations?


Dmitri is right, a joint can't generate force because it can't move by itself. The joint is where two or more bones meet and the muscles change the bones position relative to each other. It is pretty much impossible to move without moving the joints since the bones have to change relative position to generate force which can act outside the body. The force doesn't originate in the joint, and the turning of joints does not generate a force. The force causes the joints to turn. The muscles tension acts on the bones and moves the bones.

The above doesn't mean that the joints aren't trained. The question is what is actually trained. Which I say is connective tissue strength and more importantly the coordination of the joint motion to reduce stress on the joint as much as possible. If you punch something or someone and you feel it in your wrist/elbow/shoulder/back/hip/knee then you have not coordinated the body properly.
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:52 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:
rojcewiczj wrote:until there is turning in the joints, there is no force being generated. The muscles cause the joints to turn, which generates the force. The more joints that are turning, the greater the force. If we are not training the joints then why do any movement or postures at all? If we are training the joints then why try to avoid the reality of their function in relation to force. Bones transmit force, but without joints turning their is no action at all. Is it not generally accepted that taiji forms and the like are functionally a series of exercises to increase range of motion and strength in the joints, and that the martial application is the application of multiple precise joint rotations?


Dmitri is right, a joint can't generate force because it can't move by itself. The joint is where two or more bones meet and the muscles change the bones position relative to each other. It is pretty much impossible to move without moving the joints since the bones have to change relative position to generate force which can act outside the body. The force doesn't originate in the joint, and the turning of joints does not generate a force. The force causes the joints to turn. The muscles tension acts on the bones and moves the bones.

The above doesn't mean that the joints aren't trained. The question is what is actually trained. Which I say is connective tissue strength and more importantly the coordination of the joint motion to reduce stress on the joint as much as possible. If you punch something or someone and you feel it in your wrist/elbow/shoulder/back/hip/knee then you have not coordinated the body properly.


I think you're both right.

From a purely mechanical perspective at least.

Primarily the joints channel the force to the ground and back without letting any of it get caught and damage us.

Secondarily, the force multiplying potential of compound machines that rotate and lever means greater effective force can be produced than by simple direct means. A stiff muscle driven arm arcing down from the shoulder from above the head may deliver far less force than a relaxed arm connected through the joints dropping slightly in a complex series of micro vectors.

I.e by providing mechanical advantage joints generate force.
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:24 am

oragami_itto wrote:I think you're both right.

From a purely mechanical perspective at least.

Primarily the joints channel the force to the ground and back without letting any of it get caught and damage us.

Secondarily, the force multiplying potential of compound machines that rotate and lever means greater effective force can be produced than by simple direct means. A stiff muscle driven arm arcing down from the shoulder from above the head may deliver far less force than a relaxed arm connected through the joints dropping slightly in a complex series of micro vectors.

I.e by providing mechanical advantage joints generate force.


joints rotate,

Image

Image
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 am

Rotation as shown is just a function of the lever.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby charles on Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:39 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Rotation is just a principle of the lever


Sigh.

The scientific principle is leverage or mechanical advantage. A prerequisite for leverage is a lever arm (distance) and a fulcrum (axis/pivot point) about which the lever arm can rotate.

Rotation is not a principle and is not limited to the action found in a lever.

There are three classes of lever. The first and third classes can increase one's effort or decrease one's effort (mechanical advantage greater than 1 or less than 1, respectively). Only the second class always has a mechanical advantage of 1 or more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

One of the ways of trapping, leading to unbalancing an opponent, is to have/put the opponent's body in a position where his mechanical advantage is less than 1. For example, try to push someone so that when you make contact push with your hand just in front of your chest or shoulder, your arm bent well beyond 90 degrees. You'll have a difficult time extending your arm due to your poor mechanical advantage. (Timing to meet your opponent's push/strike so that his arm is in a position that is poor for him is one way to have an opponent push himself away from you.)
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Re: Four wheel drive

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:43 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Lately, I have experienced that much unnecessary tension and effort can be spent in trying to generate more force from a single major root joint (shoulders and hips). When shoulder and hip joints stay open and mobile, they form a composite force, analogous to a four wheel drive function. The four major joints relate to each other, assisting and completing the actions of each other, without losing their individual functions.


what your describing sounds a lot like this..

"producing rotation"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm9_WrrGCEc
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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