the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Does IMA = Taiji to you? What if there is difference between XingYi attitude and Taiji attitude?

johnwang wrote:Does IMA = Taiji to you? What if there is difference between XingYi attitude and Taiji attitude?

Training attitude or fighting attitude?

One thing I keep thinking about is taijiquan classics. The further one gets from them the further they ostensibly are from taijiquan. Be evasive, avoid conflict. Is a key part of what it means to embody the art. Both mentally and physically before and during combat.

I'm not aware of the xingyi classics. The strategy as I came to understand it is direct overpowering force steamrolling the opponent.

With that understanding the fighting attitudes could not be more different, imho.

Training wise, I don't see the need for a difference, eat bitter and invest in loss. Follow the teacher till the teacher says you've got it, THEN start thinking about being creative and embellishing and inventing.

Interloper wrote:Bao,
IMO, one of the first things a good IMA student has to be able to do, is to put aside any past training and martial arts experience, as they will get in the way of the necessary processes for developing the "internal" method. It's a completely different and separate practice, using the body in a very different way, so it has to be given its own space.

I agree for most of it and well... I am not sure that it’s always a completely separate practice. But that’s for another discussion. Thank you.

....

johnwang wrote:Does IMA = Taiji to you? What if there is difference between XingYi attitude and Taiji attitude?

The question was mostly for learning and being a student. Here I see no difference. But in general, there are sure differences. XY has a very different mind-set. XY practice is very rewarding, but I stopped practicing it when I understood that I just turned it into Tai Chi. I think most people who practice both of them tend to turn one of them into the other. I can not separate them properly.

Bao wrote:The question was mostly for learning and being a student. Here I see no difference. But in general, there are sure differences. XY has a very different mind-set. XY practice is very rewarding, but I stopped practicing it when I understood that I just turned it into Tai Chi. I think most people who practice both of them tend to turn one of them into the other. I can not separate them properly.

That's a big part of the reason I didn't start xingyi again with taiji. I can see that it was infecting it.

I was talking with someone the other day about someone he taught briefly
He insisted the guy could have been good
I said if he could have been good he would have
Some people no matter what they are shown always grab the insubstantial
Others by being shown the wrong direction to look in at an early stage will always look in that direction
That's why I don't teach students from certain schools
If it is your fate you will learn
If not like so many others you will remain in the maze no matter what you are shown and who your teacher is

Bao wrote:

Interloper wrote:Bao,
IMO, one of the first things a good IMA student has to be able to do, is to put aside any past training and martial arts experience, as they will get in the way of the necessary processes for developing the "internal" method. It's a completely different and separate practice, using the body in a very different way, so it has to be given its own space.

I agree for most of it and well... I am not sure that it’s always a completely separate practice. But that’s for another discussion. Thank you.

Actually, I don't really disagree with you, there. There are some situations in which "internal" is combined with martial movement and technique and trained simultaneously, as in aikijujutsu. My thinking was more along the idea of having the student separate the internal developmental process so he can recognize the specific body qualities necessary for creating internal "effects," before applying them to martial movement.

In my experience and observation, people who are taught the two processes (internal body method and martial movement) simultaneously do not always fully understand the exact mechanics of the internal stuff. They are operating mainly intuitively to create a certain effect in specific martial technique, rather than fully comprehending the internal body quality itself.

Just remember that your cup isn't full.

Peacedog wrote:Mainly because the ones who don't just stick around, but continue to practice on their own and really improve are so rare.

I remember reading somewhere that Zheng Manqing while living in NY preferred the hippielike students because they always had time for practice

I look for things in others that I require of myself

Clarity
Honesty
Sincerity

Have the clarity of mind to understand what one wants and expects
Have enough honesty within oneself to admit and understand what one can not do or has not achieved,
Sincerely approach the art with respect, understand the place that ones practice comes from.....

With something like taiji, I've found its very easy to fall into the qi trap with out really being asked to
prove anything...One must be very ruthless in their desire for understanding

I look for this in those I work with, and hold it to myself as something that guides my own practice.

Good post WW, those are clearly wanted traits.

Along with WW's "honesty", particularly with oneself, I'd add, an attitude of humility that goes hand-in-hand with self awareness.

Specifically, a recognition that the arts are based on specific principles, specific approaches, and just by reading, watching some videos and thinking about "stuff" we aren't sufficiently "gifted" to figure out the core of, let alone "interpret", one's chosen art. No matter how much one believes it, playing around with finger-painting does not make one a da Vinci.

The average person is just average, despite that fact that most of us want to believe we are above average. Recognition that good hands-on instruction from someone well skilled in the art of one's choice will take one much further than simply making stuff up while believing one has understood the core of the art.