Invisible JiuJitsu

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:56 am

Not sure if this has been posted before...

Rickson Gracie and also his BlackBelt Henry Atkins are famous for their 'Invisible JiuJitsu'. I thought some here might find his discription of what he is doing interesting and convergent with some of the IMA goals or methods.

Man, how you going to explain the taste of wine for somebody who never try it or never see it? It’s hard…

The invisible aspect of jiu-jitsu for me by far the greatest and the most interesting. Because it is not based on what I see it. It is based on how I feel it. That’s why it is invisible. It’s not about seeing. You may see the same guard position, but you feel different if you put pressure here, if you lie a little more here. So the invisible results are the ones that really please me because they are the ones that I really deeply felt you know?

That’s what I try to promote is the capacity once you have to have to develop their own sensitivity for what is invisible.

Balance for example is invisible because it has to be connected with my opponent’s energy. If you push me I have to have my balance based on that push. And if you pull me I have to shift everything and be able to keep my balance on that pull.

So it is an invisible deal of adjustment and weight distribution and connection which has fused the purpose of feeling the pressure or adding pressure or escaping from the pressure or keeping the control or whatever is the position. But for me you saw about those details which makes amazingly different a sense of “Wow man! Now I can feel.” And when the students say to me “Wow man, I understand now!”…wow its not about the visible, what is visible. But is how you feel it and you know it’s experience man which keep me in the game because I love to give that feeling of the students feeling what is supposed to be impossible but based on the invisible aspect you say “Wow! That’s simple.” And that’s amazing man. It’s a special feeling.


Yes, you have to basically relax.

You can not fight using power. Then everything that you are able to do which is in the relaxed mode based on angles, based on weight distribution. You minimize your efforts and you maximize your results. And that is your seeking for the invisible aspects.

Which, the less power you do, the better results you do, you get something right my friend. That’s the way.

The way to seek the invisible aspect is the way where you lose the physical resources and become more like gentle and allowing yourself to the minimal effort and the little angles and stuff you start to become better in your results.

Once you get that direction you start to seeking for that easy way to resolve all of the problems. And then you need the right path.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:11 am

It would be interesting to know where his ideas came from....

"They have also been "tested" by many other groups in the park, as well as by many visitors from different counties with different forms of martial arts. One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back."
http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Taipei_Report.htm

"The most reputable one was led by Mr. Zheng Shyan-Chi, a senior student of Grand Master Huang Sheng-Shyan. He came to the site every morning, rain or shine for a number of years. There are about 20-30 players in the group who meet regularly"

That group specializes in ph, for those interested
http://taichitaiwan.blogspot.tw/2008/12 ... ping2.html

The author has since passed a way a while back from what I understand.
Not saying the Gracie was him, or not him only that it would interesting to know when his ideas changed if they did, and how or what brought it about.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLd6_dydNT8
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:30 am

Doesn't the guy in peace park also have a background in hung gar
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:39 am

"They have also been "tested" by many other groups in the park, as well as by many visitors from different counties with different forms of martial arts. One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back."
http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Taipei_Report.htm


This story has been going around for years. I have yet to see any evidence that it was at all true. Unfortunately eye witness testimony, especially when claiming defeat of a famous martial family for personal promotion, cannot be trusted.

Rickson has been a Yogi for many many years. It is highly possible that his deep interest in Yogic traditions has informed his JiuJitsu and was a key aspect of how his style of Jitz developed.

thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby Dmitri on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:51 am

middleway wrote:I thought some here might find his discription of what he is doing interesting and convergent with some of the IMA goals or methods.


Yep. I also posted this years ago after I went to his seminar, might be of some relevance here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9067
Last edited by Dmitri on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:54 am

Yep. I posted this years ago after I went to his seminar:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9067


Boom, I knew it had been discussed but couldnt find it in a search.

Thanks Dmitri
Last edited by middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:30 am

?? Isn't the BJJ method based on JJJ or early Judo. Are these skills really news, I mean isn't this somewhat the meaning of the name JuJutsu?
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:35 am

?? Isn't the BJJ method based on JJJ or early Judo. Are these skills really news, I mean isn't this somewhat the meaning of the name JuJutsu?


Yes i think this is the meaning of JuJutsu. Whether that meaning is expressed in most JuJutsu or Judo is up for discussion.

Could we say that Wu Style Taiji and Chen Style Taiji are exactely the same? I dont think we could. The same is true of BJJ and Judo. Having sparred with British team Judoka and World Champion BJJ blackbelts, there are definative differences in both how they feel and how they use their bodies.

Regardless, I dont think things have to be 'New' to be insteresting. And i just thought it might be interesting. :)
Last edited by middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:40 am

middleway wrote: Not to jack the thread.

While true its been around I did try to contact the author just out of self interest a long time ago,
never was able to connect. I think someone mentioned it here, that he had passed a way a while back. We all get there, :-\ may he rest in peace if true.


This story has been going around for years. I have yet to see any evidence that it was at all true. Unfortunately eye witness testimony, especially when claiming defeat of a famous martial family for personal promotion, cannot be trusted. I read it as an accounting nothing more, no name was mentioned ,it wasn't a lead part, just a part of a total accounting. Met some members of the group a couple of yrs back, they do practice and focus on ph,,,,not my thing, nor interest in the way they and some others use the practice....
For others stopping by Taiwan it might be a good place to check out.
The people are very friendly and like to play. Many can speak English...


Rickson has been a Yogi for many many years. It is highly possible that his deep interest in Yogic traditions has informed his JiuJitsu and was a key aspect of how his style of Jitz developed.

thanks.


You and Dmitri,
both mentioned having contact with him, it might interesting if you both shared some
perspectives on it relating to the OP's questions.

thanks ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:52 am

middleway wrote:
?? Isn't the BJJ method based on JJJ or early Judo. Are these skills really news, I mean isn't this somewhat the meaning of the name JuJutsu?


Yes i think this is the meaning of JuJutsu. Whether that meaning is expressed in most JuJutsu or Judo is up for discussion.

Could we say that Wu Style Taiji and Chen Style Taiji are exactely the same? I dont think we could. The same is true of BJJ and Judo. Having sparred with British team Judoka and World Champion BJJ blackbelts, there are definative differences in both how they feel and how they use their bodies.

Regardless, I dont think things have to be 'New' to be insteresting. And i just thought it might be interesting. :)

I have no experience at all with BJJ or Judo, but it could be thatBJJ more follow the traditional meaning of JuJutsu while "modern" Judo has gone the "muscle way" ?
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:58 am

I have no experience at all with BJJ or Judo, but it could be thatBJJ more follow the traditional meaning of JuJutsu while "modern" Judo has gone the "muscle way" ?


Thats very possible yes.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby jaime_g on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:08 am

Very interesting stuff coming from Rickson

For example, Pedro Sauer does this:



IMO any internal guy worth his salt should be able to do this in the ground. It is my default tactic in closed guard.
Last edited by jaime_g on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby jaime_g on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:15 am

Another interesting method from Saulo Ribeiro (who learnt from Royler,Rickson's brother)



A decent internal body method should make you able to walk through an opponent like that both standing and in the ground.


---> I'm not saying Rickson, Sauer, or Ribeiro are doing x or y style or doing all the same things, but it is the kind of stuff any internal guy should be able to do in the ground
Last edited by jaime_g on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby marvin8 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:01 am

07:22 — First concept is base, balance, invisible power.

17:35 — Second concept is connection.

26:39 — Third concept is breathing, emotional control.

34:11 — Fourth concept is strategy.

43:38 — Fifth concept is leverage.

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Published on Feb 12, 2018

at Rickson Gracie cup 2018 Komazawa Olympic park gymnasium.
11,Feb 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh3K4ttwuyg
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:10 am

heh, I blogged about this back in 2016. If anybody is interested, here's the link:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... d-tai-chi/
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