Invisible JiuJitsu

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:13 am



Henry Atkins is showing Invisible JiuJitsu here. "remove the slack" ... now where have i heard that before :)
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby Ian on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:21 pm

jaime_g wrote:Very interesting stuff coming from Rickson

For example, Pedro Sauer does this:



IMO any internal guy worth his salt should be able to do this in the ground. It is my default tactic in closed guard.


I can get white belts with no training to do this in about five minutes. Not sure what this has to do with 'internal'.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby grzegorz on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:21 am

Trick wrote:?? Isn't the BJJ method based on JJJ or early Judo. Are these skills really news, I mean isn't this somewhat the meaning of the name JuJutsu?


I have experienced what is being labelled invisible with older judoka with decades under their belts. They could pin you and you could not move and it wasn't from strength but through relaxation. A pin would so painful that you would tap knowing that escaping would be impossible.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:07 am

Ian wrote:
jaime_g wrote:Very interesting stuff coming from Rickson

For example, Pedro Sauer does this:



IMO any internal guy worth his salt should be able to do this in the ground. It is my default tactic in closed guard.


I can get white belts with no training to do this in about five minutes. Not sure what this has to do with 'internal'.


Have to agree with Ian.

(Although I have a rye smile for the direction of any thread on RSF towards... ----> 'OK, then, what is "internal"?' )

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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby drums on Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:24 am

Internal conditioning makes it so that "its" on all the time (to varying degrees). The technique that can be taught to replicate these types of things within minutes may have some overlap with the training that needs to be done to reach the conditioning/"always on" body but repetition and refinement is required through regular practice. And then sometimes tricks are just tricks for example the lifting the chair demo that is going around on youtube at the moment.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby jaime_g on Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:28 am

GrahamB wrote:
Ian wrote:
jaime_g wrote:Very interesting stuff coming from Rickson

For example, Pedro Sauer does this:



IMO any internal guy worth his salt should be able to do this in the ground. It is my default tactic in closed guard.


I can get white belts with no training to do this in about five minutes. Not sure what this has to do with 'internal'.


Have to agree with Ian.

(Although I have a rye smile for the direction of any thread on RSF towards... ----> 'OK, then, what is "internal"?' )



Sauer shows a method, maybe Ian's is the same or different.

What this has to do with internal? You dont need internal work to do this, but if you can close kua, you can do this. Internals 101. It's a very simple example for me.

Can you do this without closing kua? Of course, I'm sure plenty of guys are doing just that. Are they getting the same effect and results? For my experience feeling people trying to use that...no
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 am

I can get white belts with no training to do this in about five minutes. Not sure what this has to do with 'internal'.


I agree Ian.

I think that is the point of Rickson or Henry Atkins methods, that they are accessable without decades of body method work.

The thread is regarding overlap of concepts and some common ground between the various methods, not necissarily 'internal' vs 'other'.

As Jaime mentioned, and in my experience, there are certain body methods, developmental techniques and mechanics that can take the basic stuff being shown even further so that it moves out of the purely defensive and into the defensive / offensive combined. I am sure you are also aware of that and of course, Pedro Sauer and Rickson are very likely doing that work as well. Labels like internal or not dont particularly matter.

Thanks.
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Last edited by middleway on Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:06 am

Over long years I've come to the conclusion that labels for martial arts exist in the world because they do matter. If they didn't matter (to whatever extent) then they wouldn't exist.

I was reading recently (not my idea) that the best way to view it is a sliding scale of 1 to 10 for 'how internal is this?' - from just using local muscle on the left (0-1), through to external martial arts in the middle (5) that use Jin (ground force) to some extent, to internal martial arts at the end (10 being the highest) that use full dantien control of movement.

I think BJJ and Judo have the potential for being in the middle of the scale - some Jin usage. Often this is what you see termed as 'invisible jiujitsu'. I think that's exactly what you need for groundwork (and for fighting generally) - beyond that it's a case of returns vs time spent. If you want to make your living as a pianist you don't need to become a master of the very hardest pieces of classical music. It's almost irrelevant. Of course, if you want to devote your life to it then, it's your life and it's a world of discovery.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:37 am

Over long years I've come to the conclusion that labels for martial arts exist in the world because they do matter. If they didn't matter (to whatever extent) then they wouldn't exist.


At the level of the group i agree. At the level of the individual i am not sure that any distinctions matter.

I think BJJ and Judo have the potential for being in the middle of the scale - some Jin usage. Often this is what you see termed as 'invisible jiujitsu'. I think that's exactly what you need for groundwork (and for fighting generally) - beyond that it's a case of returns vs time spent. If you want to make your living as a pianist you don't need to become a master of the very hardest pieces of classical music. It's almost irrelevant. Of course, if you want to devote your life to it then, it's your life and it's a world of discovery.


Nicely put.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby jaime_g on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:42 am

I was reading recently (not my idea) that the best way to view it is a sliding scale of 1 to 10 for 'how internal is this?' - from just using local muscle on the left (0-1), through to external martial arts in the middle (5) that use Jin (ground force) to some extent, to internal martial arts at the end (10 being the highest) that use full dantien control of movement.

I think BJJ and Judo have the potential for being in the middle of the scale - some Jin usage. Often this is what you see termed as 'invisible jiujitsu'. I think that's exactly what you need for groundwork (and for fighting generally) - beyond that it's a case of returns vs time spent. If you want to make your living as a pianist you don't need to become a master of the very hardest pieces of classical music. It's almost irrelevant. Of course, if you want to devote your life to it then, it's your life and it's a world of discovery.


I'm sure chen tcc scores a 10 in that scale ::)

Why only middle of the scale? Do you see a problem on using full dantian controlled movement in bjj and judo?
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby willie on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:35 am

GrahamB wrote:Over long years I've come to the conclusion that labels for martial arts exist in the world because they do matter. If they didn't matter (to whatever extent) then they wouldn't exist.

I was reading recently (not my idea) that the best way to view it is a sliding scale of 1 to 10 for 'how internal is this?' - from just using local muscle on the left (0-1), through to external martial arts in the middle (5) that use Jin (ground force) to some extent, to internal martial arts at the end (10 being the highest) that use full dantien control of movement.

I think BJJ and Judo have the potential for being in the middle of the scale - some Jin usage. Often this is what you see termed as 'invisible jiujitsu'. I think that's exactly what you need for groundwork (and for fighting generally) - beyond that it's a case of returns vs time spent. If you want to make your living as a pianist you don't need to become a master of the very hardest pieces of classical music. It's almost irrelevant. Of course, if you want to devote your life to it then, it's your life and it's a world of discovery.


Hi Graham, Yes.
I don't think of a sliding scale, but I do think of what's more inside.
Dantian augmentation is 10.
Segmented strength as 1.
I've met people who are extremely snobbish over "internal" and they don't even know about dantian augmentation or using internal organs
to actually power applications. These people think totally black and white. It's what's more inside or more outside.
Is Kua internal? if it is, then where is it on your list?

On the other half of your post. I really didn't see anything special about this "invisible Jiu Jitsu".
I also don't really think that it's necessary to compare them or to try to tag them with a line like "internal".
Last edited by willie on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby grzegorz on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:36 am

Everything is martial arts is marketing. No marketing, no students.

The whole reaaon we are talking about BJJ (instead of sambo for example) is because they knew how to market themselves.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby Dmitri on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:43 pm

grzegorz wrote:...because they knew how to market themselves.

...you mean had the balls and the skills to market themselves the way they did.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby grzegorz on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:54 pm

Call it what you want marteking is marketing.

I have 4 videos on YouTube called Russian Sambo vs. BJJ. It was shot in the US. I think the Sambo club are actually Georgians but I posted it because BJJers were posting and highlighting only the matches they won but actually it was pretty much even Steven by the end.

BJJers are marketing geniuses. I love bjj and sambo and judo but that doesn't mean I can't criticize it. Just as I love my silly ass backwards country and criticize the hell out of it too.

I believe in the truth and speak the truth otherwise what is the point in posting? After UFC 4 just BJJ wasn't enough.
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Re: Invisible JiuJitsu

Postby grzegorz on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:59 pm

Here is one of four.

https://youtu.be/6uWgXZbBToY

The Gracies love money. If you don't believe me then you don't know the Gracies.

I am not hating. It is what it is. I suppose if my grandfather had his own art that could make me rich I would cash in too.

Invisible Juijitsu...LOL! In judo we just call it judo.

Sambo relied more on a top game for good reasons.

https://youtu.be/57J54Dkbk5I
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