Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

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Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby johnwang on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:48 am

Just had my stress test day before yesterday. I didn't realize that I should push my heart rate to 147 in my exercise. I asked my doctor whether or not I should push my heart rate to 147 daily. She said I should. After that daily test, if I don't feel chest pain, I'll be OK. If I do, I should let her know.

Apparently my daily MA training don't push me to that level. I may have to add "fast spring" into my daily training in order to achieve that. This make me think that most Taiji guys may never achieve 147 heart rate in their daily training. Normal resting heart rate ranges from 60 to 100 beats a minute. How will you be able to know if you don't have any heart problem if you don't make your heart to beat in that kind of fast speed 147?

May be I need to change my training. Lately I tried to coordinate my body move with my breathing. When I breath slow, I'll move slow. May be I should just move fast and force my breathing to be fast. If I feel too comfortable about my training, I may not push myself hard enough.

What's your opinion on this?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby willie on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:07 pm

Hi John.
This is a very important topic.
It very well could be the main difference between achieving personal goals or complete failure.
But there are also different views on this as well.

O.K. so yesterday I was training with a small advanced group of martial artist's. I noticed that I didn't even get tired and I used too.
That's because I've been being much more consistent in the gym, Really bringing up my endurance on the thread mill.

So last night was cardio and dead-lifts. My dead-lifts are hovering around 385 LBS @ body weight of 165. could I get more? Risking injury?
Is it worth it? a lot of questions..How far should I push it? Should I compare myself to other's who are naturally stronger?

The other hand.
Pre-mortal qi, We are all born with a certain amount of life giving energy. Is this energy not without end?
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby johnwang on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:41 pm

In the past 3 months, 2 of my friends had heart attack in their bed and didn't wake up in the morning. My wife forced me to get a full heart check. The test result came back yesterday and it was good.

This stress test makes me rethink my training program. Instead of spending 2 hours work out and still breath normal at the end, may be I should just work out 1 hour, push myself harder and breath fast afterward. Definitely I'm going to add more kicking (even tornado kick) back into my training. That 1000 XingYi Pi training just doesn't affect my heart beat at all. First I thought that was good. Now I think it's not good after all.

I don't think I can do either of the following drills 1000 times non-stop. I'm going to drill it until I breath fast.

1. 2 punches 4 kicks combo - front kick, roundhouse kick, hook punch, side kick, turn back kick, spin back fist.
2. 4 punches 2 kicks combo - grab and punch, kick and punch, kick and punch, punch.

I think I should get better "health" result from it than from my 1000 XingYi Pi Chuan.
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby Dmitri on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:59 pm

johnwang wrote:Normal resting heart rate ranges from 60 to 100 beats a minute.

Interesting... Guess I'm very abnormal because my 'resting heart rate' is somewhere around 45-48 bpm (sometimes a little more or a little less, but I don't think it ever gets to 60)

How will you be able to know if you don't have any heart problem if you don't make your heart to beat in that kind of fast speed 147?

I thought there were usually pretty clear symptoms of having a heart problem... :-/

If I feel too comfortable about my training, I may not push myself hard enough.

Definitely some truth to that, but:

This stress test makes me rethink my training program.

I would most definitely advise against it. You've been doing just fine without that input, -- don't let someone, anyone, dictate what you should or shouldn't do unless you actually have a problem (and they're a doctor you trust that's trying to fix that problem). Don't create one for yourself because of some silly statistics!
Your training regimen puts you at the top fraction of a percent, as far as exercise levels go for people in your age group. There is nothing wrong with it, don't force anything.

Trained runners have heart attacks while running because they are competing against someone (instead of against themselves), or trying to achieve some artificially-imposed goal (like beat a certain time or a certain distance).

Everyone's different, just go at your own pace and be happy.

FWIW
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby willie on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:01 pm

One of my friends died from heart attack about 15 years ago. He was always pushing it. Jogging for miles. I remember him getting injured, kicked in the chest during his third degree black belt test. He died a couple weeks later. But was it from the kick to the chest? Or was it because he's simply burned himself out? We keep ignoring the fact that our heart is running Non-Stop. What's powering it? is it premortal Chi? My teacher is kind of obsessed with power. He traveled the world seeking out the people with the most internal energy, fajin. One time he was demonstrating his power to Chen Zhang lei and Chen Zhang lei told him to back off because the power has reached a level that was endangering his heart. Think about that and what others seem to believe about Tai Chi.
Last edited by willie on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby Peacedog on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:51 pm

For high intensity cardio impacting endurance lasting 20 minutes, or less, you really can't beat the Prowler. It is purely concentric exercise and is pretty easy to recover from. Just don't push it, pun intended, too much the first couple of sessions. See below

https://startingstrength.com/articles/d ... ynolds.pdf

I think one, or maybe two, session a week would be more than sufficient.

If not, utilize some high intensity interval training (HIIT) with a kettlebell also for one or two sessions a week.

If you keep the number of sessions down it would not impact your training and you would definitely get something out of it.

I think Ron Panuto does some kind of HIIT training as well, so you might want to drop him a line.
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby johnwang on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:36 pm

I try to alternate serious workout and easy workout one day after next. I find out the following are very good for easy day workout.

- 80 sit up.
- 80 push up.
- 3 miles running.
- XingYi 5 element fists 200 of each, 1000 total.
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby everything on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:50 pm

That's easy? That's pretty fantastic. Several people who posted their story on youtube have tried to copy this cartoon for a short time:



100 pushups
100 situps
100 squats
10km run
every single day for 3 years. I think they may consider the first 3 easy, but not all 4.

What is the hard day?

I think for me, TBH, doing this would be appropriate (but should quickly be too easy):
10 pushups (have a shoulder issue)
20 situps
30 squats
2 mile run
a little taiji form mostly as qigong, not MA. then improve from there.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:00 pm

johnwang wrote:Just had my stress test day before yesterday. I didn't realize that I should push my heart rate to 147 in my exercise. I asked my doctor whether or not I should push my heart rate to 147 daily. She said I should. After that daily test, if I don't feel chest pain, I'll be OK. If I do, I should let her know.

Apparently my daily MA training don't push me to that level. I may have to add "fast spring" into my daily training in order to achieve that. This make me think that most Taiji guys may never achieve 147 heart rate in their daily training. Normal resting heart rate ranges from 60 to 100 beats a minute. How will you be able to know if you don't have any heart problem if you don't make your heart to beat in that kind of fast speed 147?

May be I need to change my training. Lately I tried to coordinate my body move with my breathing. When I breath slow, I'll move slow. May be I should just move fast and force my breathing to be fast. If I feel too comfortable about my training, I may not push myself hard enough.

What's your opinion on this?


I had one of those last Friday for similar reasons, my same age cousin suddenly died.

The doc said there was nothing to worry about, I had to reach 152bpm and it was not a traumatic experience at all.

I've been considering adding some traditional cardio but if I'm good I'm good, right? Is there harm in sweaty training like some say?
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:04 pm

Cardio and conditioning are slightly different. Part of the problem would be do you just want to raise the heart rate to 147 or are you wanting to be working comfortably at that capacity in a given activity? The two are different.

If i want to just get the rate up, then anything that gets me there will achieve that (maybe reading Playboy magazine is best? lol). Sprints come to mind and the prowler has already been mentioned. But those results won't automatically transfer to other areas unless trained. Putting a runner in a swimming pool is the classic example. The runner has the cardio output to make swimming happen but hasn't trained the muscular endurance for swimming.

John's comment about taichi guys not pushing it enough is right IMO because you eventually want to do a higher amount of work in a given amount of time at the same and then at a lower heart rate than before. That's the training process. But being stuck in slow mode with little variation on training won't provide that stimulus.
Check out my school/gym: http://formosafitness.pixnet.net/blog
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:10 pm

johnwang wrote:Just had my stress test day before yesterday. I didn't realize that I should push my heart rate to 147 in my exercise. I asked my doctor whether or not I should push my heart rate to 147 daily. She said I should. After that daily test, if I don't feel chest pain, I'll be OK. If I do, I should let her know.

Apparently my daily MA training don't push me to that level. I may have to add "fast spring" into my daily training in order to achieve that. This make me think that most Taiji guys may never achieve 147 heart rate in their daily training. Normal resting heart rate ranges from 60 to 100 beats a minute. How will you be able to know if you don't have any heart problem if you don't make your heart to beat in that kind of fast speed 147?

May be I need to change my training. Lately I tried to coordinate my body move with my breathing. When I breath slow, I'll move slow. May be I should just move fast and force my breathing to be fast. If I feel too comfortable about my training, I may not push myself hard enough.

What's your opinion on this?

The heart doesn't know what exercise one is doing, only how hard it is working. Following are the American Heart Association's prescribed heart rates and durations.

Excerpt from American Heart Association Recommendations for Physical Activity in Adults,
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/HealthyLi ... pCwga6nH7M:
AHA Recommendation

For Overall Cardiovascular Health:

• At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

• At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity

AND

• Moderate- to high-intensity muscle-strengthening activity at least 2 days per week for additional health benefits.

For Lowering Blood Pressure and Cholesterol
• An average 40 minutes of moderate- to vigorous-intensity aerobic activity 3 or 4 times per week


Image

Excerpt from Calculate Your Maximum Heart Rate!, https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calhr.htm:
Contributing Writer on June 29, 2016 wrote:When you're doing cardio to burn fat, you want to stay in the range of 65%-70% of your maximum heart rate. If the goal is to increase stamina and aerobic capacity, you aim for 85%.

Image

When you're doing cardio to burn fat, you want to stay in the range of 65%-70% of your maximum heart rate. If the goal is to increase stamina and aerobic capacity, you aim for 85%. A normal Resting HR can vary as low as 40 BPM to as high as 100 BPM.

70 BPM is usually the average for a man, and 75 BPM is average for a woman. The resting HR should be used as an index to improve your cardiovascular fitness level, with a focus on decreasing it.

The palpation (beats) of the Radial Pulse is accurately measured in your wrist in line with the base of your thumb. Place the tips of your index and middle fingers over the Radial Artery and apply a light pressure to it.

Do not use your thumb. It has a pulse of it's own. You may count the beats for one full minute to get the HR, or for 30 seconds and multiply by 2 for the number of BPM.

MAX HEART RATE CALCULATOR
YOUR AGE . . .
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby windwalker on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:10 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
John's comment about taichi guys not pushing it enough is right IMO because you eventually want to do a higher amount of work in a given amount of time at the same and then at a lower heart rate than before. That's the training process. But being stuck in slow mode with little variation on training won't provide that stimulus.


Always an interesting comment about taiji guys...I suppose it depends on the type, teacher and reason for training.
Most hard stylist as well as other athletes I've encountered and worked with could not do it nor met the standards.

My teachers first grand son once remarked when asked how to improve ones practice.

"the more pain you can endure, the deeper level you can achieve"

Historically the training was quite demanding.
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby johnwang on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:56 pm

For "health" purpose, should you train fast than train slow if your body can afford it?

Which of the following training can give you better "health" result?

1. Slow vs. fast - Repeat 1000 XingYi Pi Quan within 40 minutes, or repeat 1000 XingYi Pi Quan within 20 minutes.
2. Punch vs. sweep - Repeat 500 XingYi Pi Quan within 10 minutes, or repeat 500 foot sweep within 10 minutes.
3. Sweep vs. throw - Repeat 500 foot sweep within 10 minutes, or repeat 500 hip throw within 10 minutes.
4. ...

I prefer foot sweep over front kick, or side kick because the foot sweep is easy on the joints.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:44 pm

johnwang wrote:For "health" purpose, should you train fast than train slow if your body can afford it?

Which of the following training can give you better "health" result?

1. Slow vs. fast - Repeat 1000 XingYi Pi Quan within 40 minutes, or repeat 1000 XingYi Pi Quan within 20 minutes.
2. Punch vs. sweep - Repeat 500 XingYi Pi Quan within 10 minutes, or repeat 500 foot sweep within 10 minutes.
3. Sweep vs. throw - Repeat 500 foot sweep within 10 minutes, or repeat 500 hip throw within 10 minutes.
4. ...

I prefer foot sweep over front kick, or side kick because the foot sweep is easy on the joints.

2. and 3. are not HIIT. High-intensity interval training (HIIT) includes rest periods. A combination of HIIT and longer slower distance (LSD) is most likely best.

Here are some resources, which I haven't thoroughly read, yet.

Excerpt from What Is Heart Rate Variability–and Do You Need to Know Yours?, http://www.health.com/heart-disease/hea ... ariability:
"HRV is a very good measure of the efficiency and performance of your cardiovascular system,” Dr. Higgins adds. A high HRV means your heart is performing like one of those expensive cars that can go 0 to 60 in 2.7 seconds. “Studies suggest that people who have a higher HRV are actually healthier and live longer with less risk of disease,” he says. A lower HRV is associated with heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes.

https://www.8weeksout.com/
Who is Joel Jamieson?

Joel is a best-selling author and one of the world’s foremost authorities on strength, conditioning, and energy systems. His training strategies have been used by thousands of elite performers and top athletes worldwide, including the Navy Seals, UFC champions, and dozens of teams from the NFL, NBA, MLS, NCAA, and more.

Some articles:
1. 3 Things to STOP doing if you want better conditioning
2. Putting an End to the LSD vs. HIIT Debate

supertraining06
Published on Nov 8, 2017

Famed strength and conditioning coach to UFC Flyweight Champ Demetrious “Mighty Mouse” Johnson joins us for this two-parter. Joel’s training strategies have been used by thousands of elite performers and top athletes worldwide, including the Navy Seals, UFC champions, and dozens of teams from the NFL, NBA, MLS, NCAA, and more.

In part one, we discuss strategies for training and recovery, and things that can impede both performance and recovery. We also get into heart rate variability, a metric that Joel has been assessing in athletes for a long time. What is it, and how do you know if yours is good?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GdtnP8VJt4

supertraining06
Published on Nov 11, 2017

Joel talks about the programming he uses in working with UFC Flyweight Champ Demetrious “Mighty Mouse” Johnson, other top level athletes, and just regular people trying to get into better shape. He discusses how heart rate variability is measured, and offers strategies for improving yours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGRHkItKJPc
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Re: Stress Test - We may not push ourselves hard enough

Postby Overlord on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:18 pm

johnwang wrote:Just had my stress test day before yesterday. I didn't realize that I should push my heart rate to 147 in my exercise. I asked my doctor whether or not I should push my heart rate to 147 daily. She said I should. After that daily test, if I don't feel chest pain, I'll be OK. If I do, I should let her know.

Apparently my daily MA training don't push me to that level. I may have to add "fast spring" into my daily training in order to achieve that. This make me think that most Taiji guys may never achieve 147 heart rate in their daily training. Normal resting heart rate ranges from 60 to 100 beats a minute. How will you be able to know if you don't have any heart problem if you don't make your heart to beat in that kind of fast speed 147?

May be I need to change my training. Lately I tried to coordinate my body move with my breathing. When I breath slow, I'll move slow. May be I should just move fast and force my breathing to be fast. If I feel too comfortable about my training, I may not push myself hard enough.

What's your opinion on this?


From what i know [Stress test involved two parts, stress ecg and stress echo. Negative ecg does not mean no problem, if echo is positive and there is pain, then then need angiogram to verify.
Positive ecg does not necessary mean there is blockage, need heart CT to verify. ]

If you can do stress test more than 10 mins (MET 13.5), put you in top 10% of population. Check with your cardiologist to verify the above info.
This means you need to run 3000m in about 18~20mins for your work out routine.
I usually will do zhanzhuang and xingyi after this run, till the finger tip start to sweat as well.

Younger people will have faster max heart rate calculated by age. Old people heart rate is slower calculated by age. It is the nature of things, you cannot reverse white hair.
All talk is talk and theory until you do it yourself. ;D
Good job John.
Last edited by Overlord on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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