Subitai wrote:johnwang wrote:MaartenSFS wrote:The Missing Half of Taijiquan...
Your concern doesn't start today. Back in 1928 people already expressed the same concern. Here is a list of the top 15 finishes. Almost all of them studied northern styles most being either Long fist or Xing Yi.
There were not a single person from the Taiji system. Why?
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1928 National Guo Shu fighting Competitiion results and some questions
朱国福(上海 形意)、 Xing Yi
王云鹏(河南 少林)、Shaolin
张长义(上海 形意)、Xing Yi
马裕甫(山东 查拳)、Long Fist (Cha Quan)
张英振(山东 查拳)、Long fist (Cha Quan)
窦来庚(山东 太乙门)、Tai Yi Men
杨法武(山东 摔跤、查拳)、Long fist (Cha Quan) Shuai jiao
杨士文(山东 迷踪拳)、Long fist (Mi Zong)
顾汝章(江苏 少林)、Shaolin
王成章(上海 洪拳) 、Hong quan (not sure if northern or southern
朱国桢(河北 形意)、Xing Yi
张维通(山西 六合拳)、Xing yi liu he Quan
朱国禄(河北 形意)、Xing Yi
马承智(安徽 少林)、Shaolin
胡炯(江西 字门拳)。Zi Men Quan (This is the only southern style)
You know... "A" story I heard about this competition was that there were less than 15 winning medals actually. When they started, the fights were on a Lei Tai... there were allot of fighters. Someone could loose by: Getting knocked off, getting something broken or seriously injured or conceding defeat. In the beginning the lower level fighters were easily eliminated. But when you started getting down to the final bunch of fighters that's when the fighting got more serious because now the SKILLED fighters are the only ones left and they have pride and ego to not be easliy defeated. More and more were under the risk of being seriously hurt. So they decided to stop it at 15 fighters left.
Interesting that John points this out i.e....that no Taiji was really used. Mabe some were used however...but they didn't make it to the end, that's a possibility.
Shamefull plug: I know of at least one of these 15 because he is an ancestor in my lineage: Gu Ru Zhang
What's interesting is that as typical to what my research into the subject and just plain asking other people's heritage was that MOST (but not all) fighters in the past that had used Taiji successfully...as far as I know.... ALSO studied other arts 1st and also learned to build up the body. Giving credence to the saying that Taiji is really a graduate level art that you really learn to use only after your body and skill have matured enough. I described in a post way back my experience visiting Chen village and how hard the younger people trained before they concentrated on form.
It seems as if there was a period where allot of people who weren't interested in fighting so they progressed with their Taiji ...but in a more SOFT not combat version. I know that won't be well received by all the Taiji Almightyists on this board...who cares.
Now, what is different today (modern era) or what seems like... is that there are a FEW teachers who are supposidly ONLY Teaching Taiji, but are adding in harder skills to try and make it more well rounded. That is if you intend to fight with it. I personally think it's the individual not so much the style...you're either a fighter at heart or not, it can't really be taught.
There is a common saying for sure in Southern kung fu styles...I don't know how old it is and I can't butcher the Cantonese to try and write it in English but it goes to the effect of:
"Train Hard (Hard skills) in Kung Fu while you're young and not just Forms...Or your kung fu be useless in old age"
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Other observations for this thread:
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* I think Willie's comments about his "dead lift" and how it affects his strength structure is insightful. I had a brief college football coach (All American) who would certainly agree with him.
*
MaartenSFS Said:
" If your opponent is a striker and doesn't let you close in arm-bars and chokes will not be enough to end the fight."
"O"= Careful bro, you're starting to sound too insightful. That could be Good or Bad. You sound like a discussion from the late 90's... that is also a trap that many TMA have fallen for. Striker VS Grappler, Chicken or the egg.
What I mean by that is that you're either being very smart and are opening up another whole can of UFC/NHB/MMA worms or UH OH, are you really going to go there?!!!