Song, what does it mean?

[willie]

In the context of TJQ, sung cannot be achieved without the necessary leg strength,


so eat bitter.

leg strength has a lot to do with it. Isolating the load into the quads is key for relieving the pressure on the hip joints. Song kua

[willie]

Hi willie,
I agree -- most of these internal arts seem to lack a clear teaching language, and instead use metaphors, songs, and riddles. Probably in part, so that deep concepts could be kept secret, and also, in part, because the teachers themselves did not really understand

Hi Cady. I think that what really happened was Chinese had came to United States and the Americans were very interested in them and their culture. So it was very easy for these Chinese immigrants who may have only had a little bit of skill to get a lot of students. So the transmission that those students received was not real and it spread throughout the land. Even the Chinese who did know the real skills did not want to transfer it to foreigners. So it was easy for a Chinese immigrant to come to the United States or other countries and just because they were Chinese it was easy for them to get students and make money.

[Interloper]

I think that what really happened was Chinese had came to United States and the Americans were very interested in them and their culture. So it was very easy for these Chinese immigrants who may have only had a little bit of skill to get a lot of students. So the transmission that those students received was not real and it spread throughout the land. Even the Chinese who did know the real skills did not want to transfer it to foreigners. So it was easy for a Chinese immigrant to come to the United States or other countries and just because they were Chinese it was easy for them to get students and make money.

Yes, that corroborates my thought on teachers wanting to hide the "goods," and of those who had incomplete skill sets to begin with and who thus were lacking the material and the teaching methods.

I've also had plenty of exposure to teachers in the US who have skills but do not share them. They string along students and seminar participants, collecting their money and giving them external shells of exercises, pointless without the internal drivers that were intended to give them substance.

But, I'm not just speaking of these arts being taught to Westerners -- I'm also thinking of what was going on in the arts' native lands and regions. In Japan, for example, aiki ("internals") was taught to select individuals, not necessarily to everyone who walked through the doors of a dojo -- not even many long-time, dedicated students. Everyone else got... "stuff." Maybe perfectly good jujutsu and even shoden (first or beginning level) aiki training, but not the deeper meat-and-potatoes of internal method.

My understanding of China is that even there, often only the son/children of a master teacher, or his very top disciple or two, would receive a full transmission, in some systems. Also, Mao's cultural revolution saw the mass wiping out of many martial arts schools' top teachers, and the watering down of a number of arts so that very few individuals remain today who have a full education and transmission in their traditional arts. These arts may have survived in their entirety only in the hands of those who fled China before the revolution, or who somehow managed to hide who they were and what they knew. With a few exceptions, there are not many of these people or their descendants who openly teach and give out the jewels of their arts.

But, I feel that in these times, secrecy doesn't make much sense. As has been said frequently by one great teacher and master who openly teaches his art, "The secrets guard themselves." You can teach the principles, and even the exercises and processes to master them, but only a relative few will really do the work and gain anything of substance. That's why I find it puzzling that so many are so unwilling to talk about their arts that way, other than to withhold the teachings, and mete them out in small doses for large amounts of money, to make a very good living.

[willie]

Yes, that corroborates my thought on teachers wanting to hide the "goods," and of those who had incomplete skill sets to begin with and who thus were lacking the material and the teaching methods.

I've also had plenty of exposure to teachers in the US who have skills but do not share them. They string along students and seminar participants, collecting their money and giving them external shells of exercises, pointless without the internal drivers that were intended to give them substance.

But, I'm not just speaking of these arts being taught to Westerners -- I'm also thinking of what was going on in the arts' native lands and regions. In Japan, for example, aiki ("internals") was taught to select individuals, not necessarily to everyone who walked through the doors of a dojo -- not even many long-time, dedicated students. Everyone else got... "stuff." Maybe perfectly good jujutsu and even shoden (first or beginning level) aiki training, but not the deeper meat-and-potatoes of internal method.

My understanding of China is that even there, often only the son/children of a master teacher, or his very top disciple or two, would receive a full transmission, in some systems. Also, Mao's cultural revolution saw the mass wiping out of many martial arts schools' top teachers, and the watering down of a number of arts so that very few individuals remain today who have a full education and transmission in their traditional arts. These arts may have survived in their entirety only in the hands of those who fled China before the revolution, or who somehow managed to hide who they were and what they knew. With a few exceptions, there are not many of these people or their descendants who openly teach and give out the jewels of their arts.

But, I feel that in these times, secrecy doesn't make much sense. As has been said frequently by one great teacher and master who openly teaches his art, "The secrets guard themselves." You can teach the principles, and even the exercises and processes to master them, but only a relative few will really do the work and gain anything of substance. That's why I find it puzzling that so many are so unwilling to talk about their arts that way, other than to withhold the teachings, and mete them out in small doses for large amounts of money, to make a very good living.

yeah I have to agree with this, I actually was told a lot of things directly about the events that really happened. Also, I don't think that there was anyone who was teaching in the United States who did have a complete transmission. Except for maybe one or two. Remember there was no video back then so nobody knew what was right and what was wrong. So it was easy to pass off what appeared to be the real deal. There was a story that I heard about people who practiced Aikido that went to Japan in search of the Mysteries that surrounded the art. When they got there the Japanese told them that if they wanted to learn the more fighty part of Aikido, then they would have to go to a certain School. when they got to the school they were very disappointed because the teacher was a white guy named Steven Seagal. They wanted it to be a Japanese guy. Now I know this isn't talking about song but it is definitely evidence of what this current conversation has evolved into. Thanks

[Interloper]

yeah I have to agree with this, I actually was told a lot of things directly about the events that really happened. Also, I don't think that there was anyone who was teaching in the United States who did have a complete transmission. Except for maybe one or two. Remember there was no video back then so nobody knew what was right and what was wrong. So it was easy to pass off what appeared to be the real deal. There was a story that I heard about people who practiced Aikido that went to Japan in search of the Mysteries that surrounded the art. When they got there the Japanese told them that if they wanted to learn the more fighty part of Aikido, then they would have to go to a certain School. when they got to the school they were very disappointed because the teacher was a white guy named Steven Seagal. They wanted it to be a Japanese guy. Now I know this isn't talking about song but it is definitely evidence of what this current conversation has evolved into. Thanks

Yes, so much of what went down back then, we know only through the word of any witnesses, or the students of those witnesses. And back in the "Kung Fu" and "Bruce Lee" days, everything out of Asia had a mystique for Westerners, who lapped it all up.

Aikido, after WWII, had pretty much lost any internals that Ueshiba had taught to some of his earlier students, when he was still teaching the direct curriculum and issuing strolls for Daito Ryu aikibudo, the internal art he had learned from his teacher, Sokaku Takeda. The aikido that Steven Seagal practiced and taught did not have internals, but he did a yeoman's job of re-tooling Ueshiba's later big-circular movements to be smaller, tighter and more explosive, for fighting purposes.

Yeah, we've taken the topic pretty far afield. I'll bring it back around by saying that this thread is symptomatic of the Babel of the internal martial arts, due to the wildly disparate levels of completeness of the systems and of the degree of transmission of skills. "Song" will thus mean so many things to different people that there will never be a consensus in a discussion forum.

[Interloper]

Very rapid change-ups from tanden-ho (dantian activation) and meimon-ho (mingmen activation), combined with lateral and spiraling change-ups of the kua, create vibration and oscillation at a very subtle and nuanced level.

Are you referring to inertia effects, such as the shaking seen in long pole work?

Hi charles,
I wasn't referring to the mechanics that build dynamic tensions for the express purpose of generating fajin, though there is some overlap of processes. What I was thinking of, is the rapid manipulation of Peng jin (meaning, 6-directional force) up, down, laterally, diagonally, and also inward and outward (condensing and expanding), with the application being to cause an opponent's structure to be taken apart and his mass controlled, upon contact.

Done in rapid, small-movement change-ups, this feels like a pulse or vibration, and oscillation.

Here's a clip that shows this. Listen for the demo partner to mention feeling "waves" going through him, and watch his body as its posture breaks in pieces as force dismantles it joint by joint. The demonstrator is doing everything slowly, so his partner can feel and describe what he is experiencing. Done "at speed,"
the partner would not be able to sense what was happening. His body would just react.

I can't embed the link, but it should open.

https://www.facebook.com/HHRofNewEnglan ... 511800523/

[windwalker]

Yeah, we've taken the topic pretty far afield. I'll bring it back around by saying that this thread is symptomatic of the Babel of the internal martial arts, due to the wildly disparate levels of completeness of the systems and of the degree of transmission of skills. "Song" will thus mean so many things to different people that there will never be a consensus in a discussion forum.

I disagree the op

I am interested in peoples understanding of Song, what does it mean?

My current understanding is that it has to do with having space within oneself, or to reside within ones own space. Meaning, that one has the space to change internally regardless of external restrictions. It remains very mysterious to me. If we say Song means to relax or release, How does relaxation effect application?

The question was good, "I am interested in peoples understanding of Song, what does it mean? "

The problem arose when the OP suggested his own understanding and asked others to agree to it.

" If we say Song means to relax or release, How does relaxation effect application?"

Followed with some feeling they have the answers instead of an "answer" their own.

[windwalker]

edited

[charles]

Done in rapid, small-movement change-ups, this feels like a pulse or vibration, and oscillation.

Thank you.

[Trip]

Yeah, we've taken the topic pretty far afield.

I don't practice taiji chuan

Greetings Interloper,

I like a lot of what you post.
I get a lot out of your experience with the version of Fang Song in the martial art you practice.

But, as you said, you've taken the topic [Fang Song] far afield.

So, I don't understand why you call what someone says--who practices Fang Song--in their Taiji, babble? Especially when you don't practice Taiji yourself. It doesn't seem helpful. It seems to only add to the confusion.

Besides, what you’re saying flies in the face of reality.
On this thread, there have been definitive definitions of Fang Song.
And multiple metaphors from the major styles of Taiji.

Plus, you’ve been having a conversation with Willie. He claims to have complete understanding of Fang Song and more.
That means you have access Willie. Why aren’t you getting clarity about meaning and usage in Taiji from him?

Or, if you do understand Fang Song usage and meaning in Taiji I beg you to post it to remove all confusion from the people who study Taiji.

After that if you still don't understand Fang Song in Taiji there's other sources.

Chen style is specific on their meaning & usage of Fang Song.
Yang Style is specific on their meaning & usage of Fang Song.
Both provide multiple places to find instruction.

If you needed clear instruction on Fang Song in Chen Style Taiji, there's people here who could help. I think Charles has studied with (2 or 3?) Top Chen Style teachers. I bet if asked he and others would have great suggestions of where to get good instruction for Chen Style.

If you want info about Fang Song in Yang style, you can find Yang Family Taiji being taught in Seattle and countless other places.

You can find Traditional Yang Style from the Tung’s in Hawaii & Los Angeles.

If you just want to understand what Fang Song means in Yang style you can go to their website and ask.
On the Yang website, you can find, Louis Swaim, the author of 2 great Yang Family Taiji books. The man seems to have been brought into existence just to translate & clearly explain Chinese terms connected to Yang Family Taiji. There’s others there who will even translate what Louis says.

Clear knowledge & Clear teaching for Fang Song in Taiji is out there.

Please know that I am well aware that what I post--some will just refuse to believe. Some will be confused, puzzled.
It’s a fact & I accept that.
I just don’t write well enough to do anything about some peoples confusion.
So, I sincerely hope my post to you doesn't come off as confusing or disrespectful.
...
I find both of the following definitions of Fang Song far from babel.

by Wang Hai Jun Fang Song – Loosen the body

[size=85]The first of these skills is fang song, sometimes abbreviated to song. Song is frequently translated as “relax.” While this is true, it does not really describe the process. The joints must relax, but as a consequence other parts of the body must work hard, particularly the legs. Loosening the joints is perhaps a better translation. The result should not be a body like a cooked bowl of noodles: rather it should be like a solid piece of rubber, strong but not stiff. The term fang has two meanings. The first is about something remaining under control, connected to both the mind and the body (i.e in this case not going limp.). The second is to put something down, away from you. The combination of these two meanings provides the understanding needed.

For most people studying taijiquan, song appears early on in their lessons. Unfortunately, most adults (and many children) are much stiffer than they realise. We do not know where we are tight, nor the degree of stiffness we generally maintain in our joints. In taijiquan, song describes the requirement of loosening the joints, relaxing the habitual stiffness from them, getting used to holding them without stiffness, then moving them without stiffness: Shoulders and hips, elbows and knees, the spine, particularly in the waist, the ankles and wrists.

When a joint is loosened, it is free to rotate or turn without hindrance or resistance. It is this ability that is required in taijiquan. The taijiquan classics talk of even the smallest pressure of a feather or a fly causing movement, like a finely balanced and oiled ball-bearing, where even the lightest touch causes it to rotate.

This is from the Yang Family:
Fang song is an approach of training. It is a strategy; it is not something tangible. Today there are many practitioners of Yang style Taijiquan, and unfortunately many have not fully comprehended the meaning of fang song, and they misinterpret its meaning. This is because song (relax or loosen) and ruan (soft) were put into the same category. Many think that song is ruan. What we consider as song is not ruan. Song requires that the joints and the muscles be intentionally letting loose, and extended. This is loosened up and extended out. Extended. It is not ruan. It is not this way nor this way. [He illustrates.] If it is this way, it will be difficult to express the jin.

I think they have a lot in common

[Trick]

No one ever seems to want to talk about actual biological-mechanical aspects of internal structure and power. Maybe they think it is giving away "secrets"? These aren't secrets. If you figure out how to use these things to make "Peng," and work them until you do, then you have earned that skill.

Hi Cady. That's most likely because it's too specific. From what I have seen most of the people don't really understand what they're doing in a specific way. That's because they were taught in riddles. It is much safer to leave out specifics and talk in general terms. In that way they would not be exposing themselves as someone who does not know the answer. Because of the riddles, like the term (a woman's hair hanging down equals song) which is incorrect. This is left for the practitioner to ponder, perhaps for years. When In-fact there is nothing to ponder. It"s just a riddle spoken by riddlers with no real tangible meaning. The other riddle is a little better. (It's the snow which has accumulated on top of a tree branch). Although this is also completely incorrect and open for infinite interpretations, it does have a couple specific qualities. However, in order to figure out what those qualities actually are, the person would have to have a more specific and more correct understanding in the first place. Because of this fact the entire analogy is useless. Perhaps this is why we are talking about wavelength oscilloscopes and swing sets?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/bat ... 0702212323

[charles]

edited

Thanks for your response. I read it both times you posted it, with the differences between the two. I appreciate it, but am just not sure where to go with it. I'm not sure whether we experience different things or just have very different descriptions/models of the same thing.

[willie]

Plus, you’ve been having a conversation with Willie. He claims to have complete understanding of Fang Song and more.
That means you have access Willie. Why aren’t you getting clarity about meaning and usage in Taiji from him?

Or, if you do understand Fang Song usage and meaning in Taiji I beg you to post it to remove all confusion from the people who study Taiji.

After that if you still don't understand Fang Song in Taiji there's other sources.

If you needed clear instruction on Fang Song in Chen Style Taiji, there's people here who could help. I think Charles has studied with (2 or 3?) Top Chen Style teachers. I bet if asked he and others would have great suggestions of where to get good instruction for Chen Style.


I think they have a lot in common

trip I can see that your post is pretty much directed against me. That's fine. I don't care. I'm not going to lie just to make you happy.

[windwalker]

edited

Thanks for your response. I read it both times you posted it, with the differences between the two. I appreciate it, but am just not sure where to go with it. I'm not sure whether we experience different things or just have very different descriptions/models of the same thing.

Historically its pretty clear depending on the line of whats called taiji that one follows, practices or studies although it was described and written in the language of the day. For example "fan song" "song" ect. Depending on ones practice it might mean something very different with each useful to that practice but wrong for another.

Some have talked about the old translation of pine tree, and pine needles or hair. A pine tree is very straight, pine needles or hair can be moved by the air...The meaning to be straight and yet flexible. Like a string that is stretched allowing it to vibrate or resonate as needed....Using this as a definition explains what and why in my own work when one is told to fan song, or told this part is not song enough.
what is called pung or peng jin arises from and can be explained by it, not really the subject here.......


IMO/IME the chen style seems to have a very different model, with demos and explanations reflecting this.
There are things that one can do, and explain using one model that may not be explainable or doable using another model. They do seem to be different approaches.

In the process of updating and aligning my own approach using physics, we talk in terms of "mode shapes" "restoring force" ect in explaining and understanding the practice. Started to post some things but felt it would just add to the mix in a negative way... maybe a small example might help.

As to where to go with it,,,,kinda depends on where one is at in their own work...

This is what I had posted translation done by Mr Yeh.



Wei Shuren's book on taiji.

"圖一(Figure 1)

以懸掛的古鐘為例(圖一)，鐘體中心有一條垂直線，線下端繫一鐘錘。內功練到較高境界時，鐘錘可以旋轉，上縱及下伸。
若以古鐘比喻人體，鐘口即是三道氣圈的胯氣圈，鐘蒂為肩氣圈，中間為腰氣圈。
Take a hanging ancient bell for example(Figure 1), inside the bell frame there is a string hanging vertically at the center. The end of the string ties a deadweight. When the internal strength (Jin) reaches a higher level, **the deadweight can rotate, leap upward and stretch downward. To compare the ancient bell with the human body, the bell opening corresponds to the hip’s ring of chi among the three rings of chi. The bell crown corresponds to the shoulders’ ring of chi, and the middle of the bell to the waists’ ring of chi.

把古鐘的垂直線均分為四段，即形成五個點。(圖二)
(一) 頂點；位於人的咽喉，乃點穴之門，故又稱為絕命點，因為它不容易動轉，是權衡身體變動的準星。
(二) 上死點: 因受頂點的牽掛而活動範圍小，此處受力不易化解，故稱死點。
(三) 靈活點: 相當於人的心口處，是人身旋轉最靈活，最難控制的一處。推手時要由此處探出反應再擊死點。
(四) 下死點: 受鐘錘垂墜的影響而活動範圍不大，內勁向此點擊發易於奏效。
(五) 下垂點:位於垂直線最下端，是鐘錘所在處。此點在人的兩胯之中，它一動變影響全身，所以通常把它當作穩固下盤之用。"

** kind of echos what Interloper had posted

If one can do it, much of the meaning can be expressed using modern physics to explain and test it by.
The points talked about in the translation can be thought of as nodal points, along with antinodes.

[Trip]

trip I can see that your post is pretty much directed against me. That's fine. I don't care. I'm not going to lie just to make you happy.

Willie, that post is not about you.

Interloper said their wasn't clear teaching language on Taiji (& Fang song)
I included definitions on Fang Song from 2 different styles.

I wish you the best in your practice!
You share your growth on video.
I see you're real Taiji practitioner.

I'm focused on Taiji
I have honestly let you go.
Let me go.

If you really understand Fang Song -- Loosen up!
or as you say, "Loosen down and away"