Song, what does it mean?

[Trick]

Yes here are some very good explaination, mixed with Charles insights "rojcewicz" should have gotten his answers and now the hard work begins

Not likely, there is too much information here that is open for incorrect interpretation. Acquiring Fang song is a very specific thing.
it does not really have to do with the bulk of information listed in this thread at all. It has to do with opening up the joints and keeping them open under load. Remember in the classics the story about a fly setting taichi in motion? That is because of fang song in the joints. It is a method of suspending the joint so that the ball on the end of the bones revolves effortlessly with no drag. If you observed the video that I had posted above, you will see how effortlessly he is moving like a well oiled machine. That's because he has shifted the load from closing the joints to instead suspending the joint by placing the load directly on his quads. Therefore weightlifting or bodybuilding to enhance the quads of the legs will make your Tai Chi Superior and help you to create the condition of fang song

Hi Willie, yes as I kind of wrote, there will be a lot of "hard work" to come to true understanding.....I would really like to see the videos you post but YouTube is difficult here in China and I'm not very clever with computers

[rojcewiczj]

Its seems to me that the concept of "setting" the bones is closely related to that of Song.

here is a brief description off of wikipedia:

"A bonesetter is a practitioner of joint manipulation. Before the advent of chiropractors, osteopaths, and physical therapists, bonesetters were the main providers of this type of treatment.[1] Traditionally, they practiced without any sort of formal training in accepted medical procedures.[2] Bonesetters would also reduce joint dislocations and "re-set" bone fractures."

It is known that Jigaro Kano, the founder of Judo, went to the bone setters when he wanted to learn jiu-jitsu. In fact, Japanese bone setting is colloquy called "judo therapy". I have often heard the phrase to "set the shoulder". It seems to me that the correct setting of the joints allows weight to flow effortlessly through the bones. When one relaxes, one can feel if there is discontinuity in the joints, where there is an inability for the weight to settle through the bones. Over time, one can make self-corrections to the bone alignment through exercising the joints. At a high level, one can make a full and instant transfer of weight through the bones, regardless of the contact point. Is this a part of what Song seeks to achieve?

[suckinlhbf]

You can song someone to death

Really like it.
You can song someone to death, to big trouble, to great frustration.

[willie]

Its seems to me that the concept of "setting" the bones is closely related to that of Song.

here is a brief description off of wikipedia:

"A bonesetter is a practitioner of joint manipulation. Before the advent of chiropractors, osteopaths, and physical therapists, bonesetters were the main providers of this type of treatment.[1] Traditionally, they practiced without any sort of formal training in accepted medical procedures.[2] Bonesetters would also reduce joint dislocations and "re-set" bone fractures."

It is known that Jigaro Kano, the founder of Judo, went to the bone setters when he wanted to learn jiu-jitsu. In fact, Japanese bone setting is colloquy called "judo therapy". I have often heard the phrase to "set the shoulder". It seems to me that the correct setting of the joints allows weight to flow effortlessly through the bones. When one relaxes, one can feel if there is discontinuity in the joints, where there is an inability for the weight to settle through the bones. Over time, one can make self-corrections to the bone alignment through exercising the joints. At a high level, one can make a full and instant transfer of weight through the bones, regardless of the contact point. Is this a part of what Song seeks to achieve?

I've never personally heard of this, but it does sound like a little bit of the information could be there.
I know that nobody on this site really likes to speak about Chi too much. Fang song helps to open up the joints so that they move smoothly and can transfer loads. Also, because the joints are now open, the qi can move effortlessly through them. Let's say that the joint is closed. The body will not be able to swivel, it is bound by itself. Also the chi and intention is stuck because it cannot get through the joint. So as Charles had said the intention or jin, while moving from the center, gets lost before it reaches the extremities. In the classics it will talk about double weightlessness as a sickness. Just relaxing does not cure this sickness. The relaxation has to be in a way that opens the joints.

[charles]

Its seems to me that the concept of "setting" the bones is closely related to that of Song.

No, not really. You are making this much more complicated that it needs to be.

For some years, I used to see a chiropractor for problems with my neck and mid-back. After I began studying Taijiquan and was able to "relax" sufficiently, I no longer needed a chiropractor: I can "fix" my own back and neck simply by standing for 20 minutes. Doing so without excess muscle tension allows gravity to realign what needs to be realigned. I don't need to "set" anything, just stand there "properly": gravity does the rest.

At its simplest, song/fang song is to let go of excess muscle tension and allow gravity to "lengthen" stuff. Taijiquan is an art of "lengthening".

I have often heard the phrase to "set the shoulder".

And, what, exactly, does that mean? Without knowing exactly what it means, what you have to physically or mentally do - or not do - it is a meaningless phrase, much like the phrase "opening the joints" can be.

It seems to me that the correct setting of the joints allows weight to flow effortlessly through the bones. When one relaxes, one can feel if there is discontinuity in the joints, where there is an inability for the weight to settle through the bones. Over time, one can make self-corrections to the bone alignment through exercising the joints. At a high level, one can make a full and instant transfer of weight through the bones, regardless of the contact point. Is this a part of what Song seeks to achieve?

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Force exerted on the body propagates through the body's skeletal structure. Muscles and connective tissues hold the bones in alignment, else we'd crumple to the floor.

As Bao stated earlier, we want to learn to relax/deactivate muscles that aren't directly contributing to maintaining a desired structure (or performing a desired action). As another beginner's exercise, I ask students to stand feet shoulder-width apart, hands at their sides. I'd ask them to tense every single muscle they can - eyes, face, neck, arms, hands, legs, abdomen, toes, back... I'd then ask them if doing so helped them stand any better - that is, resist the force of gravity acting on them. Next, I'd have them relax every muscle they can while still remaining standing. The point of the exercise is to demonstrate for them that engaging "lots" of muscles that don't contribute to a particular action or activity doesn't improve their ability to perform that action. It tires them out, while contributing little. (It can also result in other undesirable things, but that's beyond this discussion.)

It is important to become self-aware. By doing so, one can begin to identify muscles that are engaged that aren't helping a motion or posture. "Poor" posture, generally, involves engaging muscles to counteract the poor posture. One of the ways of reducing excess muscle tension is to improve one's posture. To do so, one has to either recognize a poor posture and/or excess muscle tension. Without self-awareness, neither of those are possible. Many people are unaware of their poor posture/alignment and take the excess muscle tension that counters it to be "normal": it is what they get used to and is why many need to have it pointed out to them.

If you want to go "all-traditional", qi and jin get "blocked" and their transmission through the body "broken" at places of excess muscular tension/poor alignment, common locations of which are hips and shoulders. (Lower back is also a common one.)

[windwalker]

Doing so without excess muscle tension allows gravity to realign what needs to be realigned. I don't need to "set" anything, just stand there "properly": gravity does the rest.

Why not lie down on the floor or hang upside down ie "traction" it would do the same thing.

The alignment spoken about is within a context and function, transitions used in movement while keeping the alignment depend on context and function.

Otherwise one might as well be doing some qi gong type of training, which for many is what they'er really doing and focusing on.


Having practiced for a while before meeting my last teacher I thought I knew and understood what fan song was.

A cold winter day at the time going through brush knee and twist , he stopped me at the end of the posture..and said something I couldn't understand.
He asked that I do it again...This time he slapped my hand down , again explaining something I couldn't understand...

I though ok, got it did it again. Again "slapped down" hard ... He started to explain while looking at me, and then stopped...

In my limited chinese understanding, he ask me to watch.... He withdrew his hand into his sleeve and asked me to to touch the sleeve. I did, not feeling anything, and yet there was still the sleeve, suddenly getting what he was trying to say.

He mentioned that different body parts would take a certain amount of time to fan song, with the legs being the last and hardest part to achieve.

This for me sums up his meaning

“Form is empty, emptiness is form. Emptiness is no other than form and form is no other than emptiness.”
https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/comme ... eart-sutra

To fan song, for me is the ability to allow the body to respond as a string with nodes, and anti nodes allowing
energy to be expressed through it internally by some type of inner excitation, neutralize energy applied to it externally achieving what might be called a mode shape. I no longer view it as a matter of being soft or hard but of achieving uniformity
in the medium so that all points are one, and one point is all.

the basic idea like the empty sleeve is not to block it, but be able to allow it
to be expressed.

[cloudz]

Definitely have to agree about the legs being most difficult.

[charles]

Why not lie down on the floor or hang upside down ie "traction" it would do the same thing.

Hanging upside down might work, though I don't care for "all the blood going to my head". Standing is simple and can be done anywhere, anytime. Lying down has the forces running across the body, rather than the length of the body. That might work in some circumstances, but not mine.

I did, not feeling anything, and yet there was still the sleeve, suddenly getting what he was trying to say.

That's a good anecdote. It describes the result.

the basic idea like the empty sleeve is not to block it, but be able to allow it to be expressed.

To get out of one's own way, in short.

[origami_itto]

Bonesetting is just Chinese chiropractic. To "set" is simply to align with sung allowing the bone to settle into where it should be instead of where stupid tension is shifting it

[rojcewiczj]

I feel that focusing on keeping the joints, mainly shoulder and hips, set in their proper places, gives a concrete purpose to relaxation. If I simple relax then I release tension but I have no concern for the alignment of my bones or the setting of my joints. If I focus on keeping my joints in their correct setting then I naturally relax without losing form. When I understand that my power is my weight traveling through my joints, through my bones, then I avoid displacing my joints with tension. I want my strength to stabilize my joints, my bones, under pressure so that that the energy runs through. This is like the strength of holding a hand stand, or of normal standing. The muscles are not the power, but they are necessary for the body not to buckle as the power runs through.

[LaoDan]

I personally have a dislike of talking about only one side of an equation (Fangsong) while not mentioning the other side (Peng). If one only talks about yin without the complementary yang, then how is this Taiji? For example, when emphasizing the alignment (relaxing) with gravity without taking into account the compressive nature of gravity on the spine, then one would not also be addressing the lengthening of the spine, like being suspended from above. Both the relaxation and the lengthening (expansion) need to work together. We need the muscles that control the spine to relax so that they do not pull the bones together, but we also need the muscles to be strong such that the spaces between the bones can be maintained.

Just emphasizing relaxation can perhaps help some in avoiding knee and hip wear from bones grinding together (possibly requiring knee or hip replacement when one ages), but maintaining the loose space in those joints is probably better. Relaxation yes, but expansion also is what is balanced (i.e., fangsong plus peng; yin plus yang).

While this topic could probably fill a book, the following is what I wrote when limited to 2000 words by the host web site:
http://slantedflying.com/fangsong-%e6%94%be%e6%9d%be-and-peng-%e6%8e%a4-in-taijiquan/

While I prefer talking about the complementary balance between yin and yang throughout, perhaps Bao’s approach leads to the same end result. He emphasizes relaxation first prior to “al dente” but does not consider relaxation to be the end point. Many teachers and students seem to interpret relaxation to be the end goal rather than just an early stage. To me, it is not just who is more relaxed, or about absolutely not using force, etc.; it is instead about who obtains the better complement between fangsong and peng, between excess and deficiency, between not having projections or concavities, not resisting but also not letting lose or collapsing, etc.

Rojcewiczj,

I think that I may understand your viewpoint, but I think that you should be cautious about what you state. It seems reasonable to talk about forces going through the bones, BUT the muscle attachments actually do not – so any movement puts unequal stresses AROUND the joints rather than through them. When stationary, perhaps one could state things like you do, but in movement that type of talk somewhat breaks down and becomes inaccurate. The idea behind your post may be OK, but the way that you express it is probably erroneous.

[charles]

Many teachers and students seem to interpret relaxation to be the end goal rather than just an early stage. To me, it is not just who is more relaxed, or about absolutely not using force, etc.; it is instead about who obtains the better complement between fangsong and peng, between excess and deficiency, between not having projections or concavities, not resisting but also not letting lose or collapsing, etc.

Agreed.

I suggest, however, that until one can achieve fang song, or Peng for that matter, there is no complement to be had. The OP asked about song and that has been the focus of the discussion so far.

[rojcewiczj]

the skill is how to move to position your joints with out using power and how to use power without moving your joints.

[charles]

the skill is how to move to position your joints with out using power and how to use power without moving your joints.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

[rojcewiczj]

It seems to me that one must first, by relaxing, allow for freedom of the joints. The joints are then articulated so as to align the bones. The power is then sent through the bones via movement of the mass as a whole, without displacing the joints. In the first two steps, one should not try to send the power through. Over time these three happen so quickly that it become nearly instantaneous.