Yang Zhaopeng

[johnwang]

I'm sure there are loads of non-Yang students who practice killing or who'll say they do. So, John, I think it's about time you started asking them.

People may say that I should not use the word "kill".

When I

- swing my Miao Dao, I do intend to cut my opponent's body in half.
- use palm edge to strike my throwing dummy's neck, I do intend to break my opponent's neck.

Why should I lie to myself?

The day that I realized to throw my opponent on the ground is not enough, I still have to finish him. The day that I truly understand what a "fighting" is all about.

[Steve James]

- use palm edge to strike my throwing dummy's neck, I do intend to break my opponent's neck.

In every tcc "form" (afaik), there's a "chop." There are even specific two man exercises that practice chops. Some might argue that style X's "chop" is not the same as style "Y's." Some might say that one uses a different type of power. Fair enough. Still, a chop to the neck/throat is a chop to the neck/throat. It's not as easy as Emma Peel made it look, but it's still effective.

That's another thing. It's not really that hard to hurt people, even without much training. Sure, this doesn't mean that an ordinary guy can defeat an mma champ. Otoh, it's highly unlikely he'll ever have to face one. It's as likely as you'll get into a fight with a mma guy on the street.

I agree that it's good to have a "finishing move." I just think that having to decide to finish someone is rare. I understand that it's not practical to push someone away forever. I think that's only an issue in competition. A fight is something different. Remember your old "spiked ring." Tai chi guys can carry them too.

[willie]

if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves.

I have asked this question for the past 30 years. "How will you use Yang Taiji to kill your opponent?" People may say that I should not use the word "kill". When I swing my Miao Dao, I do intend to cut my opponent's body in half. Why should I lie to myself?

I like to start from the entering strategies and link to finished strategies. One of my students likes to start from the finish strategies and then link back to the entering strategies. By using either approaches, to finish a fight ASAP is the goal.

If you (general YOU) think that you can soft, yield, sticky, follow, sink, ..., your opponent to death, you truly don't understand what "fighting" is all about. Yang Taiji has soft, But where is the hard?

Hi John, Yang Style does not have good finishing moves.
What I used to do was use a combination of Jiu Jitsu and yang. That was just my choice because I do have kick boxing and a few years in Kempo Karate, but I was really into trying to make it work. If you've noticed a lot of Tai Chi schools are using a form of Chinese kickboxing as the martial part. So why would they have to do that if Yang style was what it used to be? It is not Tai Chi if it does not have a hardside. If somebody wants to do push hands with me, they have to risk getting through my fajin strikes first.

[windwalker]

Those thinking that a certain taiji is lacking or doesn't have something should find a better teacher.
Those thinking that taiji is about pushing or pushing someone away should find a better teacher.

Those questioning why some schools or teachers use or practice movements out side of how "they" think should find a better teacher
help them free their minds.

Those talking about "fajin" it has yet to be shown as to whether its useful or not. Should be pretty easy to post a clip showing "fajin" in use
in a free from environment. When it could have been used in a benign environment it was not why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

[marvin8]

if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves.

I have asked this question for the past 30 years. "How will you use Yang Taiji to kill your opponent?" People may say that I should not use the word "kill". When I swing my Miao Dao, I do intend to cut my opponent's body in half. Why should I lie to myself?

I like to start from the entering strategies and link to finished strategies. One of my students likes to start from the finish strategies and then link back to the entering strategies. By using either approaches, to finish a fight ASAP is the goal.

If you (general YOU) think that you can soft, yield, sticky, follow, sink, ..., your opponent to death, you truly don't understand what "fighting" is all about. Yang Taiji has soft, But where is the hard?

Hi John, Yang Style does not have good finishing moves.
What I used to do was use a combination of Jiu Jitsu and yang. That was just my choice because I do have kick boxing and a few years in Kempo Karate, but I was really into trying to make it work. If you've noticed a lot of Tai Chi schools are using a form of Chinese kickboxing as the martial part. So why would they have to do that if Yang style was what it used to be? It is not Tai Chi if it does not have a hardside. If somebody wants to do push hands with me, they have to risk getting through my fajin strikes first.

Chen Village "uses" Sanda (Sanshou) as part of their curriculum. Why (opinion) would "they have to do that?"

Xu turned down Chen Village's challenge. Because, they wanted to send a Sanda trained fighter, not a traditionally trained fighter.

@ 8:48, using Sanda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JolanPpxaaY&t=8m48s

[windwalker]

Xu turned down Chen Village's challenge. Because, they wanted to send a Sanda trained fighter, not a traditionally trained fighter.

All they need to do is send someone who's a "fighter" and has fought, traditional or not
has nothing to do with it....a "fighter" can take most methods and make it work....whether
its practical or useful depends on why the fighter uses it based on whats best for
a given context or opponent

[willie]

Chen Village "uses" Sanda (Sanshou) as part of their curriculum. Why (opinion) would "they have to do that?"

Xu turned down Chen Village's challenge. Because, they wanted to send a Sanda trained fighter, not a traditionally trained fighter.

Yep they sure looks like they do don't they. I already asked my sifu about that. It's because they want to compete in that venue. We don't do it like that. But I don't think that there's anything wrong with it anyways. Although I must say that I was not impressed with the video at all.
They should stop looking for shortcuts that lead nowhere and stick to the real. It takes longer, a lot longer, but it's worth it.

Now for the second part of your question. When I was in MMA, most of the students in the MMA School were not interested in professionally fighting in the UFC or in K1. There was a couple though.
It's the mentality, not the style.
A fighter is a fighter because he's willing to risk his health and he's willing to risk his life just to prove something or for money.

[willie]

Those thinking that a certain taiji is lacking or doesn't have something should find a better teacher.
Those thinking that taiji is about pushing or pushing someone away should find a better teacher.

Those questioning why some schools or teachers use or practice movements out side of how "they" think should find a better teacher
help them free their minds.

Those talking about "fajin" it has yet to be shown as to whether its useful or not. Should be pretty easy to post a clip showing "fajin" in use
in a free from environment. When it could have been used in a benign environment it was not why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Windwalker my first taichi teacher used to speak like you. I mean about fajin and all. Boy was he mistaken, Just As You Are.

[windwalker]

Windwalker my first taichi teacher used to speak like you. I mean about fajin and all. Boy was he mistaken, Just As You Are.

I dont practice "yang" style
I do speak from my experience. If what you feels works for you, it works for you.
If you feel a need to prove a point should be easy to show it in free use with a clip


As to "fa jin" what many seem to be talking about is a "method" of generation vs
the expression ie "fa"

There are many different types of "jin" each with a its unique signature. To say something has or does not have it based
on generation method seems to ignore the results which are the same and spoken of in the same terms. Fa jin with in context for
any taiji style is the same, methods used to generate it may be different results are the same.

[wayne hansen]

This little rolley polly CMC student is why they train Sanda in the Chen village
https://youtu.be/VNXnxCpjUNM

[marvin8]

Chen Village "uses" Sanda (Sanshou) as part of their curriculum. Why (opinion) would "they have to do that?"

Xu turned down Chen Village's challenge. Because, they wanted to send a Sanda trained fighter, not a traditionally trained fighter.

Yep they sure looks like they do don't they. I already asked my sifu about that. It's because they want to compete in that venue. We don't do it like that. But I don't think that there's anything wrong with it anyways. Although I must say that I was not impressed with the video at all.
They should stop looking for shortcuts that lead nowhere and stick to the real. It takes longer, a lot longer, but it's worth it.

Now for the second part of your question. When I was in MMA, most of the students in the MMA School were not interested in professionally fighting in the UFC or in K1. There was a couple though.
It's the mentality, not the style.
A fighter is a fighter because he's willing to risk his health and he's willing to risk his life just to prove something or for money.

So you would call that Sanda, not Chen style tai chi?

It takes longer. But, Chen Village has traditional fighters that have trained since a young age. They have enough traditional fighters to choose from. Traditional Chen should work under Xu's rules (e.g., no gloves, ring, ground and pound, etc.) without having to add to it.

[Bao]

willie wrote:
if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves.

Just proves how little you know.

Those thinking that a certain taiji is lacking or doesn't have something should find a better teacher.
Those thinking that taiji is about pushing or pushing someone away should find a better teacher.

Those questioning why some schools or teachers use or practice movements out side of how "they" think should find a better teacher

Well stated.

[willie]

willie wrote:
if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves.

Just proves how little you know.

Those thinking that a certain taiji is lacking or doesn't have something should find a better teacher.
Those thinking that taiji is about pushing or pushing someone away should find a better teacher.

Those questioning why some schools or teachers use or practice movements out side of how "they" think should find a better teacher

Well stated.

Well stated? Are you sure?

[willie]

So you would call that Sanda, not Chen style tai chi?

It takes longer. But, Chen Village has traditional fighters that have trained since a young age. They have enough traditional fighters to choose from. Traditional Chen should work under Xu's rules (e.g., no gloves, ring, ground and pound, etc.) without having to add to it.

No, I would not consider Sanda part of original Chen Style.

And whether or not somebody was trained from a young age may not really even matter as much as you think. It's not easy to teach somebody Tai Chi. If you remember Charles had said the hardly nobody ever even makes it past level 1.5 and even if they did get it, does that also mean that they have the mentality to actually use it without good reason?

Chen style is not designed to handle ground-and-pound.

[Trick]

Since Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Chanxing, isn't the "original and complete" style, actually, Chen style?

Whats the point of arguing over the crumbs spilled from the table?

These are not the crumbs on the floor, it's the crumbs left in the cookie Jar..they are still goodies

Graham is correct. It only makes sense. If you remember right a while back Graham had posted a thread on rollback The Unfinished technique or something like that. He was using a BJJ move to end the confrontation after rollback. When I was heavily involved with Yang Style, I found myself always searching for Jiu-Jitsu moves to end it. Why? Why, if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves. Do you really believe that everything was just off balance somebody or try to push him away? Sorry guys but the cat is out of the bag and a few brave people ain't afraid to say it.

Yes it would seem that CTJQ has more obvious joint manipulation techniques so I can see why you would favour it if your background is in Ju-jutsu....Something that stuck to my mind, many years ago someone wrote(in a half serious way)on a Swedish forum that in ancient times a monk from China named Chen introduced the combat art of joint manipulation to Japan......MA history theories comes in many ways