nicklinjm wrote:Agree with Bao, Tian Zhaolin actually learnt his taiji mostly from Jianhou and some from Shaohou. Later in life he was ordered by the family to become a disciple of YCF, but I think this was mostly a matter of Chinese concerns about beifen (generation) within that particular kungfu family.
When you look at the forms and curriculum passed down by Tian style people in, say, Shanghai, with the Baduanjin, at least 3 different frames, much more lively footwork, more circles, plus the increased emphasis on qinna and some quite scary fajin (depending on the practitioner), the differences between what they practice and what pure YCF lineages practice is pretty obvious.
Regarding Jia Anshu / the Yongnian people, my impression on my trip to Yongnian is that they may have preserved some of the old ancillary sets but in terms of taiji skill I did not see anything particularly special.
GrahamB wrote:Since Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Chanxing, isn't the "original and complete" style, actually, Chen style?
Whats the point of arguing over the crumbs spilled from the table?
Yuen-Ming wrote:John is right about Jia Anshu and various other Yongnian practitioners, many of which have preserved a lot of the original curriculum but not the skills. Unfortunately, skills are passed down hands-on by somebody who have them and without such transmission any curriculum is totally irrelevant.
And yes, Yang Luchan learned from CCX but we cannot possibly know whether what we see today as Chen style is the same material that was taught to YLC. So that is irrelevant too
Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is the problem-solving principle that, when presented with competing hypothetical answers to a problem, one should select the one that makes the fewest assumptions.
1. He learned Tai Chi in Chen village
2. He left, and spread the art to everyone else, but wasn't allowed to teach the full art.
3. If you want to learn what he learned, then you can still find it in Chen village.
Bao wrote:Yuen-Ming expressed it good: "we cannot possibly know whether what we see today as Chen style is the same material that was taught to YLC. So that is irrelevant too." Facts are also that Chen boxing had been long time lost from the village after the Cultural Revolution had passed. And also that Chen Fake, who had no knowledge of, or interest in, the kind of internal exercises that Chen Wangting once brought to the Chen village, had a huge impact on Modern Chen Style TJQ. What he had learned was an external and highly Shaolin influenced art and he treated his art as such. It was Fake's students who once again brought back more internal principles back into their art using what they had been taught from Yang and Wu styles. http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/
GrahamB wrote:I think the simplest answer, with the least assumptions, is
1. He learned Tai Chi in Chen village
2. He left, and spread the art to everyone else, but wasn't allowed to teach the full art.
3. If you want to learn what he learned, then you can still find it in Chen village.
(Caveat - The chances of a westerner being taught the secrets I would say are pretty much zero anyway).
Bao wrote:Did you read the article? It's from a Chen guy. No one know if YLC was taught anything internal in Chen village because there was nothing there in what Chen Fake had. It's the Chen family who has spread the fake news. But not everyone believe their alternative history. People who has studied the facts and history don't.
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