Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby LaoDan on Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:22 am

I very much dislike the light and floppy modern reproductions that are commonly used; and especially that they typically have a balance point close to the guard. They encourage unrealistic whipping with the wrist and distortions of understanding of usage. I applaud those using fairly realistic weapons in as realistic a free sparring format as safety allows (full speed and power).

I suspect that the more authentic swordsmanship probably matches reasonably well with the quality of weapons manufacture, which I understand to have extended into the early Republic. The chaos of the latter Republic resulted in a lower quality of weapon manufacturer, as well as swordsmanship being supplanted by firearms. At least up to the Boxer Rebellion, the traditional martial arts were well respected, and although there were street performance and theater aspects of swordsmanship, there were also legitimate practitioners. I suspect that things started changing under the influence of the fitness craze (strengthening the people and thus the country, to counter the “sick men of Asia” image). Martial arts manuals began to emphasize health rather than martial usage, and performance probably gained even more dominance along with this trend. However, as late as the war of China with Japan, masters were sought to teach simplified dao usage to the troops. Even though the dadao of this period were typically rather poorly made (by village smiths...), their usage was still praised in national pride propaganda (to counter the Japanese claims of superiority with their swords and swordsmanship...).

I thought that the San Cai Jian was an older (and famous) jian form, that I knew was borrowed by TJQ schools, but I had thought that it came from XYQ rather than them having borrowed it as well. These choreographed forms may be unrealistic in terms of free fighting, but I think that they do illustrate style characteristics, though in an idealized way (much like application demonstrations, with and without weapons, often also do). I am more trusting of sparring forms and drills from the mid-Republic and earlier, and I am rather suspicious of forms that were created later. However, as rare as TJQ paired forms are (with or without weapons), I’ll take almost any that I have the opportunity to learn, even if they are borrowed from other styles, or if they are more recent creations!
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby wetmarble on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:03 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Shanzhaidao is a sword art for use against unarmoured opponents.


I don't really understand the point of this. You can hardly call this practical in any way. If you are actually fighting an opponent for real, the likelihood of having a sword is exceedingly small. If you do happen to have a sword and face an unarmed opponent, you will almost certainly be in deep legal trouble. If you are fighting an armed opponent, they will likely have either a knife, which should be relatively little threat to someone with a sword, even if they are untrained, or a gun, which should likely beat even the best trained swordsmen.

I would say there is zero chance that you will be fighting an opponent armed with a sword in a real life or death situation, armored or unarmored.

MaartenSFS wrote:I doubt that we will ever see armoured combat again on this planet, but a Dao is heavy enough to deliver a lot of blunt force trauma against an armoured opponent, especially if one has done the strength training that the weapon requires.


As far as armor goes, certainly military and police would be considered armored. There is armored combat happening literally every day on this planet. It just isn't sword vs armored opponent generally.

Frankly, if you want a weapon for actual self defense, sword is a very poor choice. Training to use guns would be a very practical choice as they are relatively easy to use and learn and very effective. Training to use sticks is a good choice, especially if you want a less lethal option. They are widely available and the techniques are applicable to most improvised weapons. Training to use a knife is practical as they are easy to conceal, readily available and can reasonably be said to have legitimate uses other than injuring people. Training sword simply has no practicality in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong though, training to use a sword is quite fun and I enjoy it on the limited occasions that I get to do so.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:22 pm

The Sancaijian was developed in the early 20th century, at the Nanjing Guoshuguan!
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:39 pm

wetmarble wrote:Frankly, if you want a weapon for actual self defense, sword is a very poor choice. Training to use guns would be a very practical choice as they are relatively easy to use and learn and very effective. Training to use sticks is a good choice, especially if you want a less lethal option. They are widely available and the techniques are applicable to most improvised weapons. Training to use a knife is practical as they are easy to conceal, readily available and can reasonably be said to have legitimate uses other than injuring people. Training sword simply has no practicality in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong though, training to use a sword is quite fun and I enjoy it on the limited occasions that I get to do so.


Many people carry small baseball bats :-\


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1PpnRJpyk4

A lot of what MaartenSFS clips show, look directly applicable to whats going on in the clip.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:45 pm

taiwandeutscher wrote:The Sancaijian was developed in the early 20th century, at the Nanjing Guoshuguan!

Then it was created by competent MAists and contain correct Jian techniques for the use in combat
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:11 am

Did you not read the thread? I have talked about 90% of the art being applicable to stick fighting more times than I can shake a stick at!

That's true about the military and police, though..
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:12 am

Ouch, why didn't he just run??? Even the woman was hammering him.. WTF.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby wetmarble on Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:58 pm

windwalker wrote:Many people carry small baseball bats :-\


They do, but does training to use a sword help you to defend yourself from someone using a bat? Or are you suggesting that we should carry swords in case we run into people with bats?

While certainly there are many sword techniques that can be applied to using a bat, I think it would be hard to argue that training the sword is the best way to use the bat, especially the dao. The dao is curved, a bat is not. The dao is pointy, a bat is not. A dao is edged, a bat is not. Many dao techniques are simply not applicable to a bat. If you want to use a bat, train with a bat.

windwalker wrote:A lot of what MaartenSFS clips show, look directly applicable to whats going on in the clip


I don't really agree. This clipped is armed attacker vs unarmed defender. All of Maarten's clips are armed vs armed. Here, the unarmed defender has two options, run or close distance with the attacker to try to grapple. I don't see any real closing of distance to grapple in Maarten's clips.

MaartenSFS wrote:Did you not read the thread? I have talked about 90% of the art being applicable to stick fighting more times than I can shake a stick at!


I have read the whole thread. One of the differences that you talked about your with regards to your Master's sword style is that you use explosive movements and thrusting techniques. When I watched the video that you posted, very few of the techniques looked like the way one would use a stick (to me). I saw pierces, wrist cuts, attacks to the legs which only seemed to be a threat in the context of a sword. There is a complete neglect (rightfully so) of using both ends of the weapon, because it would be ludicrous with a sword, but it can be quite useful with a stick.

Like I said, if you want to use a stick, train with a stick using stick techniques.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:11 pm

I live a few blocks from Yankee stadium :). Growing up, a baseball bat was one of the weapons of choice. Anybody see A Bronx Tale :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnpE-hGNVj8

Ya's think this type of thing didn't happen. Ha. But, a bat is just another type of front weighted cudgel. Most cultures have one. For a time, for some reason, golf clubs were carried. That didn't last long, since few people played golf around here; so, carrying just one club was kind of suspicious.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:16 pm

wetmarble wrote:
windwalker wrote:Many people carry small baseball bats :-\


They do, but does training to use a sword help you to defend yourself from someone using a bat? Or are you suggesting that we should carry swords in case we run into people with bats?

While certainly there are many sword techniques that can be applied to using a bat, I think it would be hard to argue that training the sword is the best way to use the bat, especially the dao. The dao is curved, a bat is not. The dao is pointy, a bat is not. A dao is edged, a bat is not. Many dao techniques are simply not applicable to a bat. If you want to use a bat, train with a bat.

windwalker wrote:A lot of what MaartenSFS clips show, look directly applicable to whats going on in the clip


I don't really agree. This clipped is armed attacker vs unarmed defender. All of Maarten's clips are armed vs armed. Here, the unarmed defender has two options, run or close distance with the attacker to try to grapple. I don't see any real closing of distance to grapple in Maarten's clips.

MaartenSFS wrote:Did you not read the thread? I have talked about 90% of the art being applicable to stick fighting more times than I can shake a stick at!


I have read the whole thread. One of the differences that you talked about your with regards to your Master's sword style is that you use explosive movements and thrusting techniques. When I watched the video that you posted, very few of the techniques looked like the way one would use a stick (to me). I saw pierces, wrist cuts, attacks to the legs which only seemed to be a threat in the context of a sword. There is a complete neglect (rightfully so) of using both ends of the weapon, because it would be ludicrous with a sword, but it can be quite useful with a stick.

Like I said, if you want to use a stick, train with a stick using stick techniques.

Training with and against swords absolutely helps. The footwork, dodging, timing etc. is critical to survive any armed encounter, sharp or not.

Some Dao are not curved, but this really doesn't factor into it. Not one bit. Yes, baseball bats are not pointy, but neither are our training swords. And they hurt to get thrusted with. A baseball bat would be much, much worse.. :o

We don't do a lot of grappling in fencing because there are better and safer ways to deal with the situation (especially in sword fighting), but you are right in saying that those types of close-in cuts wouldn't work with a bat. The leg shots, though.. man oh man would they work... We have range of options like eye jabs, foot stomps, kicks, elbow/shoulder strikes etc. (not to mention the entire unarmed curriculum that I have learned) and we DO have attacks and defences with the handle, but we don't train them in fencing because the handle is too hard. These are very effective. Like I said, 90% of the sword techniques work in stick fighting. Some will be more effective than others. Then we have some staff-specific techniques as well. In future I hope to learn more of that from my Master.

Either today or tomorrow I'll be uploading another video which will show some more stuff like those leg strikes.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:17 pm

wetmarble wrote:
windwalker wrote:Many people carry small baseball bats :-\


They do, but does training to use a sword help you to defend yourself from someone using a bat? Or are you suggesting that we should carry swords in case we run into people with bats? Ya know you may find it hard to believe but in SF I have seen a couple of people walking around with swords in my time. It seems most people have guns,,,, a famous Chinese enforcer was shot many, many yrs back by a 14 yr old with a gun. He answered the door.


I like maarten's work and have watched him grow and change for awhile. I find it to be honest, sincere, operating within the context he finds himself in. I would expect as this changes he too will change and adapt. What he trains he attempts to use real time under conditions that he feels best test assumptions made, reminds me much of my self at a younger age


My last taiji teacher did not teach any weapon work at all, feeling that what ever one picked up one should be able to use. He having learned and studied the 18 traditional weapons before learning taiji in his previous style bagua. His work at the time I met him was based on a different idea. In answer to your question in my younger days we trained our arms to be much like clubs or baseball bats, cutting arm and iron arm come to mind.

A lot of long arm styles are like this. The thinking is different. So yes, I could see were maarten's work would or could directly translate to understanding on how to deal with someone with a bat or what ever. Others may find different.


While certainly there are many sword techniques that can be applied to using a bat, I think it would be hard to argue that training the sword is the best way to use the bat, especially the dao. The dao is curved, a bat is not. The dao is pointy, a bat is not. A dao is edged, a bat is not. Many dao techniques are simply not applicable to a bat. If you want to use a bat, train with a bat.totally agree, there are other weapons within the Chinese MA that might be better examples to compare with but having trained with a dao if I happened to pick up a baseball bat the method "for me" would not change much only instead of cutting it would be hitting.

windwalker wrote:A lot of what MaartenSFS clips show, look directly applicable to whats going on in the clip


I don't really agree. This clipped is armed attacker vs unarmed defender. All of Maarten's clips are armed vs armed. Here, the unarmed defender has two options, run or close distance with the attacker to try to grapple. I don't see any real closing of distance to grapple in Maarten's clips.

Yes, but the timing distancing, range and movement are the same, options used depend on what one has or not. As I mentioned with long arm the thinking is different maybe this is where we differ in how we look at something. I mentioned baseball bats because it seems to be a common thing that many carry in their car.

MaartenSFS wrote:Did you not read the thread? I have talked about 90% of the art being applicable to stick fighting more times than I can shake a stick at!


I have read the whole thread. One of the differences that you talked about your with regards to your Master's sword style is that you use explosive movements and thrusting techniques. When I watched the video that you posted, very few of the techniques looked like the way one would use a stick (to me). I saw pierces, wrist cuts, attacks to the legs which only seemed to be a threat in the context of a sword. There is a complete neglect (rightfully so) of using both ends of the weapon, because it would be ludicrous with a sword, but it can be quite useful with a stick.

Like I said, if you want to use a stick, train with a stick using stick techniques.


not a weapons guy, but did have a friend in HI who was heavily into kendo, and IAIDO, he also taught and trained in Aikido using "what he called "aiki" this would be befor most would become familiar with with the word, not to much internet back then.

He also could translate his work into anything he happened to pick up, armed or unarmed it was the same for him.


"“The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things.”
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings: Miyamoto Musashi

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/A-book ... -rings.pdf

"Even though you know principle, you must make yourself perfectly free in the use of technique. And even though you may wield the sword that you carry with you well, if you are unclear on the deepest aspects of principle, you will likely fall short of proficiency.
Technique and principle are just like the two wheels of a cart."

http://alexandrosmarinos.com/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf


good reads
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:20 pm

"was about this time that Musashi stopped ever using real swords in duels. He was invincible, and from now one he devoted himself to the search for perfect understanding by way of Kendo."

Some one mentioned real sword s vs not.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:49 pm

Great quotes. Surely they can't refute the great teachings of Musashi??

I think that your "long arm" is similar to our "Shuaibeishou". Those that have not experienced it will never believe...

I find that this skill is just as practical with a weapon as it is unarmed.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:35 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Great quotes. Surely they can't refute the great teachings of Musashi??

.


The 'great teachings of Musashi' are still passed down in kumamoto. And quelle surprise - they don't 'fence' either. Or waste time focusing on putting their 'uniform' on.. in fact, the other famous style in kumamoto train regularly in street clothes.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:03 am

Something must have gotten lost along the way because Musashi clearly fenced.

Those were some very interesting stories, David. Thanks for sharing.
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