A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

[wayne hansen]

Liuhebafa is stated to be a 'synthesis' of internal arts.
I do not believe it but it is stated as such since I have rarely seen any expression of skill by its exponents. I also realize that effective CMA all possess liuhebafa as patterns of training and expression thereof.

I think the late David Chan had a little skill

https://youtu.be/HeWWD6Hxryk

[GrahamB]

To OP,

Yes.

The idea is that all the internal arts are called "internal" because they subscribe strongly to the same underlying theory. You can trace references to this theory back in most martial arts - even so-called "external" martial arts. Just look at the amount of Chinese martial arts that have "six harmony" in their name or variations or sub styles. This theory would go all the way back to Tao Yin exercises thousands of years ago.

Modern Chinese martial arts that subscribe strongly to this theory of how the body moves get called "internal" while those that subscribe to it 'only a bit' get called "external" martial arts. But all Chinese martial arts subscribe to the theory by degrees. In contrast, modern things like Krav Maga or MMA have hardly any or zero connection to it.

The same ideas have spread from China to Japan. Aikio has retained a lot of them, but also a lot of other stuff.

[Trick]

The presence of a global moderation threat advises me to tread lightly.

Could I have a clarification on what is allowed?

To practice the Taiji 42 competition form?

[Bao]

Sun Taijiquan

Sun Tai ji is not a synthesis. It's just "tai chi", his own version of Hao Taijiquan with a blend of Yang Style principle. There is no bagua or Xingyi infused as many claims. Everything that looks like bagua or Xingyi can already be found in Hao taijiquan. They just don't know anything about old Wu/Hao styles.

Sun Lutang thought he had it but missed the brass ring.

Sun Lutang and his friends and teachers only used the much more older term "neijiaquan" as a collective term for the arts practiced inside their own group. He also said that there is nothing called "internal." Either you understand breath and how to utilize it or you don't. And he stated that it's the same for all arts.

Hi all,
This question leads from a previous one that I asked on another thread: is it possible to encapsulate 'internal' systems into a roughly common syllabus/common theory, with the intention of creating a clear focus for faster martial development; i.e. are there core elements that unite all of these disciplines that could be taught in a refined way using modern teaching methodology?

What is original called "internal arts" or neijaquan are martial arts that have a Daoist neidan connection. When the focus lies more on the inside than on the outside, then the art could be called "internal". And this is IMO the only definition you need on "internal" arts.

The core elements are breath, calmness of mind, as well as a deep focus on song (not only "not tense").
My personal favorite concept is just: "internal awareness" or "body awareness".

I also believe that the "true" or the original internal arts must understand and develop pre-heavenly principle as understood from a neidan and Daoyin perspective. But this concept is a bit hard to explain briefly. Arts as Tai Chi, Bagua and LHBF has this principle. But most of the southern styles "internal" practice don't have it. So here it depends on if you want to include or exclude in the general notion on "internal" practice.

If the arts focus more on the things above than on developing strength and physical stamina, they could be considered "internal". Then of course, an art could focus more or less on different aspects.

...with the intention of creating a clear focus for faster martial development

Have no idea what you mean. The whole idea of internal practice is like planting a seed, water it and nurture it. But it must grow by itself. It takes its own time. You can't speed up your own internal progress, you have your own prequisites. You are the seed you are.

[suckinlhbf]

Look at the basic training of various styles - reel silk of chen taiji, santi of xingyi, zz of yIchuen, 5 centers and 9 joints of LHBF, yiyang 24 postures of Wu Taiji, Ba Duan Jin, Yi Jin Jing, Siu Lim Tao of Wingchun, Three Battle Fist of White Crane, Horse stance....etc. They try to open the joints of the whole body, lengthen the tendons and ligaments, and unite the membrances. Think it is the essence of CMA, and the key to so called "Internal" and "External" styles. It is the basic, basic, and basic. Different styles have their own training approach. Three years on horse stance, 3 years on Santi, 10 years of ZZ....etc could make it work. And to get the proper neijing is quite from luck.

[Fa Xing]

Sun Lutang thought he had it but missed the brass ring.

How so?

[Fa Xing]

Sun Taijiquan

Sun Tai ji is not a synthesis. It's just "tai chi", his own version of Hao Taijiquan with a blend of Yang Style principle. There is no bagua or Xingyi infused as many claims. Everything that looks like bagua or Xingyi can already be found in Hao taijiquan. They just don't know anything about old Wu/Hao styles.

That's not true, if you've ever trained it with someone who knows Xingyi and Bagua as well, they'll point it out.

[Bhassler]

A mule is not a "synthesis" of a horse and a donkey. It's a different animal. It's better at some things than either horses or donkeys, but not as good at others. Same goes for MA.

[Bao]

Sun Taijiquan

Sun Tai ji is not a synthesis. It's just "tai chi", his own version of Hao Taijiquan with a blend of Yang Style principle. There is no bagua or Xingyi infused as many claims. Everything that looks like bagua or Xingyi can already be found in Hao taijiquan. They just don't know anything about old Wu/Hao styles.

That's not true, if you've ever trained it with someone who knows Xingyi and Bagua as well, they'll point it out.

I have. I practice Sun Tai Chi and I have practiced Sun XY and BGZ as well as other BG and XY styles. I can point out everything people claim comes from XY or BG and how Hao style has it all, except for that SLT adapted “raise hand” and “close hands” from XY. This doesn’t turn the Sun from into a “mixture”. The body method and power generation is still Tai Chi and only Tai Chi. Other things like the follow step, santi posture etc all comes from Wu/Hao. SLT also lost the main idea of vertical circles from the original small frame that was kept in Wu/Hao, and focused on linear horizontal movement. This is an influence from Yang Tai Chi. If you can point on anything in Sun Style that turns it into a mix, you are welcome to do that. But Sun Lutang never claimed that his Sun style was a mix and no one of his students have claimed this. SLT says himself in his foreword to his Tai Chi book that even if there are principles that are the same and connect his arts, his XY, BG and Tai Chi are kept in three seperate systems. Sun Tai Chi is a Tai Chi style, not an IMA mix. But I guess you know better than SLT himself.

[klonk]

Sun Lutang thought he had it but missed the brass ring.

How so?

In light of some other comments in the thread, apparently I was mistaken: Likely he didn't think so.

[Trick]

The whole idea of internal practice is like planting a seed, water it and nurture it. But it must grow by itself. It takes its own time. You can't speed up your own internal progress, you have your own prequisites. You are the seed you are.

Yes it would seem that that the internal progress can not be speed up, at least that's how my own progress feels like But something that sometimes comes to my mind, it is known that for example Yang Luchan/Banhou where teaching the royal guard(or something like that), and how Xing/Xin Yi practitioners worked in the caravan escort service and as bodyguards. And if I not misremembered Wang Xiangzhai also taugh military personnel during his sejour in Fujian province....I just get the feeling that the MA teaching to royal guards, bodyguards and military personnel has to be simple but effective and learned in a relatively short time.....Did Yang Luchan and Wang Xiangzhai teach "internal" martial art to guards and military personnel ?

[windwalker]

.Did Yang Luchan and Wang Xiangzhai teach "internal" martial art to guards and military personnel ?

They taught what was martially effective to those who would know and understand it as such.

Some interesting history with insightful reflections of the time

"Yang Luchan and Yang Banhou both worked as instructors for Shen Ji Ying （神机营）. Literally “divine machinery garrison”, an elite force specializing in firearms (canons, rockets, mortar in the beginning, later on also rifles…) "

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.co ... ce-guards/

One of the persistent myths in Taiji is that when Yang Luchan went to Beijing, he made the training easier by taking out all the hard stumping and jumps from the form to make it easier for the nobles. There has been two reasons supplied for his doing so:

1) the form would otherwise be too difficult for the nobles,

2) he didn’t want to teach the real art to the Manchurians who invaded and took control of China in 1644. If we just take a step back and take a look at everything else we know to be true about the martial art scene in Beijing at the time, we can easily conclude this not to be true.

To start, both of these reasons implies the true essence of Taiji lies within powerful stumps and high jumps. But those are not what make basic Taijiquan skills work, or makes it different from other martial art right?

If we want spectacular high jumps and kicks, none can surpass those in modern Wushu. Are those Wushu’s athletes’ competition more authentic than even the classical forms then? As for powerful Fajin in strikes, out of the Big Six martial arts of the north, Tongbei and Baji are the ones most famous for that.

In terms of stumping, Baji and Xingyi emphasize those in their training more than other arts.

The essence of Taiji is using subtle circular forces to change the direction of the opponent, taking him off his center before he is aware. Whle I very much agree with this, it also depends on whether ones practice reflects this, many do not.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/

people inside the palace got the real skill. As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.” So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course).

Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace.

Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan.

According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.

We can tell whatever Yang Luchan taught, he taught everyone the same. Banhou’s skill and training is no different from what is taught in Quan You’s lineage, or different from those of Yongnian students Yang Luchan taught before coming to Beijing. In fact, of the six big styles of Taijiquan today, all five that shared common ancestor in Yang Luchan look more or less the same, with only Chen Style looking very different.The why and how its different the subject of many discussions

[windwalker]

Apologize if this is a little off track.
The history is quite interesting.

"Another great master who also taught at Shen Ji Ying was Liu Shijun (劉士俊). That was where he had the famous encounter with Yang Banhou: one day Yang Ban Hou came home, he was happy because he threw Xiong Xian Li (Li’s nickname, he came from Xiong County). When Bauhou related the account to his father, Yang Luchan remarked, “don’t be too happy, it doesn’t look like a clean victory.”

Banhou was puzzled. Yang Luchan said “Look under your armpits.” Sure enough, there were holes under the armpits on Banhou’s robe.

Liu Shijun, well-known master of eagle claw gongfu, could have caused him serious injury but obvious chose not to.

Later that evening, Yang Luchan felt uneasy thinking about this, and quickly made his way to Liu Shijun’s place. Liu was already packing his belongings to leave the city, as per tradition. Yang persuaded him to stay, saying this encounter was but a casual crossing of hands, all the while praising Liu’s skill and character. After much persuasion, Liu finally agreed to stay and came to admire Yang.

One of Liu’s most prominent disciples was Liu Dekuan (劉德寬), who went on to achieve even greater famous after studying with Dong Haichuan."

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.co ... ce-guards/

[Peacedog]

While there is a fair amount of overlap in training methods between the internal arts, the biggest obstacle I see towards synthesis is the difference in power generation methods used between the big three.

Generally speaking xing yi utilizes a kind of whipping spine wave power, ba gua zhang uses a penetrating twisting force and tai chi uses rebounding power. I’ve see individual examples where that is not true, but these are definitely the trends.

These different methods impact the character of the power generated and have substantial follow on effects in terms of methodology.

I think it is important to remember that when using the body as a medium of expression that in many cases there are only so many different ways to do something and that explains all of the shared training methods.

[C.J.W.]

As an aside, one of the things I used to love to do whenever I had the opportunity to meet and chat with IMA experts in private was to show them video footage of masters from other IMA styles applying their arts, and asked them if they could do the same.

Interestingly enough, what I soon discovered was that those who were truly skilled in their own arts were usually able to reproduce the skills demonstrated by other master-level IMAists with ease -- to the point where they could basically take one look at the demo and say, "Oh, sure. I can do that too!", and proceed to duplicate the technique shown perfectly using me as the crash test dummy. Even guys from styles that are usually regarded as external (e.g., northern/southern Shaolin schools) could do it.

Another funny thing is that if you ask a really good Bagua guy how he feels about Xingyi and Taiji, he'll likely tell you the essence of Xingyi and Taiji is already found in Bagua, and the same goes for Xingyi and Taiji guys when asked how they feel about the other two arts.

Just some food for thought.