A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby everything on Fri May 04, 2018 8:29 pm

If you want to "cheat" and skip to the end, here is what he says.

CHAPTER EIGHT:
練拳經騐及三派之精意
MY EXPERIENCE OF PRACTICING BOXING ARTS & THE ESSENTIAL CONCEPT WITHIN THE THREE SYSTEMS

[PART 1 – MY EXPERIENCE OF PRACTICE]


I have practiced boxing arts since my youth. I had heard every teacher say that these boxing arts are Daoist arts. I was doubtful whenever I heard this until I had progressed to training the hidden energy. Hardness and softness had merged into one, movement felt miraculous, and it became spontaneous and natural.
Discussing it with my fellow students, we each knew something about it. However, once I had moved on to training the neutral energy, the quality of discussion about my new internal condition had changed. Those who understood the experience were often less willing to talk about it, and those who knew nothing about it would not stop talking about it. For that reason, I have put pen to paper in order to reveal it to my fellows. For those of you who have passed through to such a condition, by sharing with each other we can mutually achieve perfection.
When I trained to develop the neutral energy, at the finish of each day’s practice of postures I would stand straight and think of my spirit and energy settling. Each time, I felt something down in my root chakra (also called the Yin Jiao acupoint). [Yin Jiao means “where the passive energy is quickened”. This is again still the same place as Hui Yin, meaning similarly “where the passive energy gathers”. There are three names for the same place because of three traditions: in Chinese medicine it is called Hui Yin (“Gathering Place of the Passive”), Daoists named it Yin Jiao (“Passive Quickened”), and Buddhists named it Hai Di (“Under the Sea”).] It was like a plant sprouting, and in the beginning I did not pay it much attention.
In my daily practice, there were times when the sensation would be there, other times when I felt nothing at all. In the course of time, there were occasions when the sensation lasted very long, as well as other times in which there was again no sensation. Gradually, once in the finishing posture and thinking on settling, it seemed like it was there but on the verge of going away. I thought of what the Elixir Book says about seated meditation: “Your true active aspect activates.” I made use of this idea, which to elixirists is a matter of movement within stillness.
Among those who practice seated meditation, there are a great many who understand the idea of seeking movement within stillness. In the case of boxing arts, what is sought is stillness within movement, but I am not sure how that can be communicated. I also thought upon this phrase from the Boxing Classics: “Always the exercise is to be maintained and never allowed to slip away.” I trained every day, never skipping a day.
Eventually in the training, from the moment I was in the finishing posture my whole body went into a condition of emptiness. My true active aspect would also activate, but would be on the verge of going away. Such a state is what Liu Huayang meant by “returning to a sense of the true primordial state”. I became aware of my body’s smallest movement, and I dared not to move at all, for if I moved it would go away.
I thought if I returned to the method in the boxing, it would adjust the situation. My intention within was of sinking naturalness down to my elixir field, while underneath also using an intention of naturalness to lift up my rectum. The idea inside and out was now just like when practicing the boxing. Then the moment my intention focused on my elixir field, the active aspect promptly shrank in upward and resprouted there. My whole body was now pleasantly warm and stayed so continuously. [In short, what Sun had discovered here is the simple but crucial principle that if you are sticking your butt out, your energy will seem to leak away, but if you slightly tuck your tailbone in, you will feel full of power.]
I did not yet know about the principle of rotating the dharma wheel, but it was all going on there within my elixir field, like two things in a state of competing with each other. [A dharma wheel rotation is the active energy moving up the Du meridian in the back and the passive energy moving down the Ren meridian in front, and the elixir field is where the exchange of passive and active takes place.] Then after four or five hours like that, finally they were at peace.
It seemed to me that the cause of such stillness was that from when I was practicing the boxing, the essential breath had remained in my elixir field. Even when I was not practicing, despite even the breathing of conversation, the true breath within was not hindered at all. Indeed I was not trying to deliberately cause such an effect, but there was no moment when it was not so. Zhuangzi said [Zhuangzi, chapter 6]: “An authentic man breathes with his heels.” This is essentially the idea, and this engine of there being breath without my mind being on the breath drove the activity of the active aspect to be absorbed and to smoothly reach to every part of my body.
I thereafter repeated the process as before, again rousing my elixir field, again going through my practice routine of boxing postures. With my inside and outside always a single continuum, I slowly and leisurely practiced, not allowing the slightest bit of unevenness anywhere. As I practiced, within and to my extremities it was harmonious, a continuous emptiness, and then the situation once I was standing in the finishing posture was no different from before.
There were times when I would go through my practice routine and then feel nothing, times when I would go through my routine twice and still feel nothing. But subsequently when there was something happening, I would again lift it to my elixir field and then use the boxing art’s internal breathing to rotate the dharma wheel, my intention focusing on my elixir field.
Breathing mindfully, I rotated the wheel along its course from my tailbone, to my spine, to my head, to my headtop, and then back down, same as in seated meditation practice, back down to my elixir field. At times I could do only two or three rotations and then the feeling would stop, at times only three or four rotations and then the feeling would stop. The degree of my intent was matched in both cases, the amount of rotations I could manage and the amount of boxing practice I had put in.
Later when I was not practicing, whether I was just sitting, standing, or walking, inside I was still using the breathing of the boxing practice. My body while walking could still process it. Later on it happened even when I was sleeping deeply. There would be a sudden stirring within, which immediately woke me. I again used the breathing from practicing the boxing to absorb it. I then slept soundly, and inside there was no movement. Inside and out, my whole body to its extremities suddenly felt like a void. My whole body was as harmoniously contented as if I was taking a bath.
Sometimes when this situation happened in my sleep, I was able in my dream to mindfully breathe and thereby absorb it. After I woke up, I was aware that it had happened and had been dealt with in my dream.
After practicing the boxing, I slept soundly and there was stillness within. Eventually I only had to fall asleep for my inside and out to suddenly slip into a period of emptiness. During the day, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, my limbs also experienced periods of such emptiness, and the sensation within my body was extraordinarily comfortable. Every evening, I practiced the boxing, and then while I was asleep in the night, my body often slipped into a state of emptiness. Although if I did not practice in the evening, the emptiness during sleep would occur less regularly.
Later on I understood that elixirism has an energy which dispels ailments. My own personal experiences and observations of internal and external conditions were that typical human problems become inconsequential, all illnesses are cast off, and vitality is increased. After doing seated meditation in this way and practicing the boxing in this way, I finally understood that boxing arts and elixirism share the same principles.
This has been my personal experience, internal and external, of practicing boxing arts. I have written it down for the purpose of further clarifying for my comrades.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 05, 2018 5:53 am

LDShouler wrote:Hi all,
This question leads from a previous one that I asked on another thread: is it possible to encapsulate 'internal' systems into a roughly common syllabus/common theory, with the intention of creating a clear focus for faster martial development; i.e. are there core elements that unite all of these disciplines that could be taught in a refined way using modern teaching methodology? I studied yi chuan for a few years, and often heard of Wang's ideas of the unification/simplification of internal arts...I just wondered who had any thoughts on the notion.

Or, of course, the inverse: are they all so unique that there can be no useful crossover and so no 'unifying theory'?

Grandmaster Li Tai Liang discusses the origins and methods of the Xinyi-Dao system, a modern synthesis of the traditional Chinese martial arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Taijiquan, and Shaolinquan, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27035.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Appledog on Sat May 05, 2018 6:16 am

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby windwalker on Sat May 05, 2018 6:41 am

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:Your write well and clear, having said this you've not demonstrated any thing that would lead one to conclude that you can do what you write about...I mention this only as an observation. Not a request or demand.


Right. We are all in the same boat here on that one, more or less. However, since all of this has a certain amount of logistics to it, I think that those kinds of things will end up coming in time. Lets just talk about the money which would be required for a moment, as an example, and how it is connected to the notion of amateur or hobbyist versus professional, i.e., with professional being someone who does not need to work outside of the sphere of martial arts. I doubt anyone here is willing to spend the amount of money I am on such a project and that is just an initial, surface concern you would need to address when considering something like this. Willie might have something to say about money spent ;) I too have more or less spent a lot of life and money on my own work although although it never proved to be viable as a commercial enterprise. Tried it a couple of times, found I was unable to change what I do to make it so. What I do now is more or less for my self... have a taiji bother who is in the process of doing some of things you mention based in China.

Doing what I want to do takes a lot of money and requires a lot of training and teaching time. In most cases this panders out to mean you are the owner of a very successful martial arts school, possibly the head or successor of a system, and are good enough that you've made your mint in the martial arts world. That seems to have been missed by some of the posters here -- this isn't something a hobbyist is going to be able to do (or even consider) for those reasons alone. So right off the bat you see that doing this is far far beyond the ken of most people who practice martial arts. Even your average strip mall dojo owner cannot begin to approach this kind of task unless he is very secure in his business. Because it simply takes an inordinate amount of time and money.

I have known top people who have been forced to give up or to live in obscurity because they just didn't have enough money to promote their art.
Kind of depends I've met some who I consider to be high level people who wished to remain privet. My own teacher never taught for money something he was against.

So solving the logistics problems surrounding this is very huge and very important. In many ways it is even more important than actually having skills in the first place, since then you can be afforded the time and peace of mind and the energy to devote to "real training". You would be able to afford the best instruction. With this kind of money comes any kind of instruction you want. If you can't get it in once place, it is (and it is) available elsewhere.

Then you need money to promote yourself, and as a courtesy promote your teachers as well if they want, or at least continue to give them money out of respect. Maybe even a percentage (a decent percentage) of your school's profits. Maybe call them in for seminars. At least three or four times a year.

windwalker wrote:He and another person who comes to mind Peter Ralston demoed their ideas in a very public way to show their work and be accepted by the community they moved in.

Why call it taiji.


Demoing the ideas in a very public way is like going on tour. I've plans to hook myself in with the right people to get that done, but more on that later. It again requires money and time, time and money.

I have spent a very long time organizing my life so that I could be able to do this actually. It's a passion of mine. Why, because I am impassioned. I like it. It's my thing.

Why call it taiji? I guess I just find the history and style of the Chens and Yangs and so forth to be very endearing. In it I found the missing link for all my other martial arts, and the best teachers I had, so, I like it. I also like xingyi and some other arts too.


Interesting thoughts, no longer care about what my work is called, its mine reflecting my small skill and understanding at this point in time. Many things I don't agree with in the taiji world, interesting enough reflecting my thoughts when I first saw taiji as young teen back in the city "SF" something I've addressed in my own work.

wish you luck in your project, time more then money I feel is the issue, it runs so quick one can not get it back once its gone.....Money comes and goes
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Steve James on Sat May 05, 2018 6:58 am

I think the fundamental question is always "why?" Iow, martial arts in general were developed for the same reason/s. If the goal is to create an improved martial art, then the result must be such. The goal can be something else, even personal development. If, otoh, the goal is an improvement for the public, then it (the synthesis) should be an improvement over any of its constituents.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, nor suggesting who can or can't do it. Tcc is already a "synthesis." Imo, it's unlikely that any one person invented all, or was the first to do, the movements in tcc.

Afa the internal aspect, does anyone argue who invented it? and who was the first to include it explicitly in tcc?
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 8:00 am

Steve James wrote:Afa the internal aspect, does anyone argue who invented it? and who was the first to include it explicitly in tcc?


I’ve heard that some people claim that the internal arts started 546 AD.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby everything on Sat May 05, 2018 9:57 am

In recent history it seems to be Sun who

Writes a lot about "internal"
Was the main figure who said the Big 3 are the same in principle

He talks quite a lot about energy and the tie to Taoist health arts. Those arts seem to predate the idea of "internal MA".

Perhaps they are nearly as old as MA.

I doubt it because all primates fight but not all primates meditate etc.

At some prehistórical point Homo sapiens started using human analytical brain to think of better fighting moves and tactics, and MA was born. Surely that happened first, before "Taoism".
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Sat May 05, 2018 10:33 am

Yin-Shu (the book of Daoyin ) is the most earliest known Daoyin ( Qigong )monograph. Yin-Shu is a Han bamboo slip which is interred at B.C. 186. Yin-Shu and Mawangdui silk painting making a perfect couple indicates that Daoyin ( Qigong ) was spread widely at the end of warring states period to the Early Western Han dynasty. Yin Shu creates the Qigong monograph style of “one remedy of one malady ”. the first official Daoyin monograph Various pathogenic designate theory published 900 years later retained this style. Yin-Shu also include some deleted contents in Huang-di-nei-jing.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Sat May 05, 2018 10:40 am

Steve James wrote:
In both cases, a synthesis is already the combination of theses (or ideas, etc), and is not any of its constituents. So, combining tcc and bagua might end up with bagua-taichi; but, bagua-taichi is neither bagua nor taichi.

There's nothing wrong with combining them. However, imo, the op isn't looking for a synthesis, but to find what is universal in all internal arts, and to just use that.


Yes, in search for a unique testing variable in IMA.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 11:22 am

Dao Yin is not qigong
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby everything on Sat May 05, 2018 11:33 am

wikipedians think this (but they could be wrong):

Tao yin (sometimes referred to as Taoist yoga) is a series of exercises (mainly in lying and sitting positions, but also in standing positions) practiced by Taoists to cultivate ch'i, the internal energy of the body according to Traditional Chinese Medicine.[1] The practice of Tao Yin was a precursor of qigong,[2] and was practised in Chinese Taoist monasteries for health and spiritual cultivation.[2] Tao Yin, is also said to be[3] a primary formative ingredient in the well-known "soft style" Chinese martial art, T'ai Chi Ch'uan.[4]

The main goal of Tao yin is to create balance between internal and external energies and to revitalize the body, mind and spirit, developing strength and flexibility in muscles and tendons.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby everything on Sat May 05, 2018 11:33 am

"yogas" probably came from fighters, not monks or fighting monks.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 12:00 pm

everything wrote:wikipedians think this (but they could be wrong):

Tao yin (sometimes referred to as Taoist yoga) is a series of exercises (mainly in lying and sitting positions, but also in standing positions) practiced by Taoists to cultivate ch'i, the internal energy of the body according to Traditional Chinese Medicine.[1] The practice of Tao Yin was a precursor of qigong,[2] and was practised in Chinese Taoist monasteries for health and spiritual cultivation.[2] Tao Yin, is also said to be[3] a primary formative ingredient in the well-known "soft style" Chinese martial art, T'ai Chi Ch'uan.[4]

The main goal of Tao yin is to create balance between internal and external energies and to revitalize the body, mind and spirit, developing strength and flexibility in muscles and tendons.


Precursor, something earlier. That is correct.

Cultivate qi is not perfectly correct. Dao-yin is more about balancing the body and energy, to store the energy so you can live long and healthy. It might sound similar to qigong, but it’s not about circulating qi through different parts of the body or to stimulate the meridians. I like the explanation that it’s a way to “adopt a way of life according to psycho-physical hygienic principles.” Daoyin is less about exercises, and more to incorporate Daoyin to everyday life, the way how you walk, how you sit, how you sleep, all in a way so that you can always feel comfortable in your body and mind and breath deep.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby everything on Sat May 05, 2018 12:01 pm

it sounds similar to the way yoga (with the asanas) is prep for pranayama (which sounds like qigong to me).
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby everything on Sat May 05, 2018 12:02 pm

I suspect the OP is long gone by now
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