A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri May 11, 2018 9:34 am

Uncle Yeung,
I used to collect and read every CMA books that I could find with my pocket money since I was a kid. I am also lucky enough to have a chance to read an original CMA training manual dated back to the time of Yue Fei. Most of the books I have found are the personal interpretation and realization of writers. So unfortunate to me. They keep on elaborating and go in various different directions like rolling a snow ball. The snow ball keeps rolling bigger and bigger, and further and further away from the older books. It got me very confused (because I suck) and sent my collection to the garbage disposal station. Now, I don't do anything other than the basic stretch-coil exercise, and try hard to stay away from MA.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Bao on Fri May 11, 2018 11:02 am

suckinlhbf wrote:Now, I don't do anything other than the basic stretch-coil exercise, and try hard to stay away from MA.



Seems pretty wise...

8-)
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Fri May 11, 2018 11:33 pm

The Stretch-Recoil Cycle is applicable to human movement including certain types of MA but one has to differentiate it from the Stretch-Shortening Cycle in Plyometric for example. It is difficult to avoid concentric muscle contraction, as it is part of our responses to stress and anxiety but stretching is a good remedy. To utilize the recoil effect of our muscle will take some learning but is good fun.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby klonk on Mon May 14, 2018 6:03 pm

One way of searching for the recoil energy is to practice a technique in reverse: do it in backwards order. Then do it forward, then backwards again, and so on.

Either that or I'm mixed up on what y'all are talking about. :D
Last edited by klonk on Mon May 14, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Tue May 15, 2018 4:32 am

Practice in reverse. do you mean something like the following:

Sun Fuquan [Lutang]
[published May, 1915]
[centennial translation by Paul Brennan, May, 2015]

上編形意混沌闢開天地五行學
PART ONE: THE STATE OF PRIMAL NONDISTINCTNESS SEPARATING INTO SKY & GROUND AND THE FIVE ELEMENTS
總綱 形意無極學
GENERAL PRINCIPLES
[Section 1a:] NONPOLARITY
無極者。當人未練之先。無思無意。無形無象。無我無他。胸中混混沌沌。一氣渾淪。無所向意者也。世人不知有逆運之理。但斤斤於天地自然順行之道。氣拘物蔽。昏昧不明。以致體質虛弱。陽極必陰。陰極必死。於此攝生之術。槪乎未有諳也。惟聖人。獨能參透逆運之術。攬陰陽。奪造化。轉乾坤。扭氣機。於後天中返先天。復出歸元。保合太和。總不外乎後天五行拳。八卦拳之理。一氣伸縮之道。所謂無極而能生一氣者是也。
Nonpolarity is the state you are in before commencing practice, without thoughts or ideas, without form or shape, without a sense of “me” or “him”. In the mind, all is mixed and without distinction, a continuous vagueness, nothing being thought about. Most people do not understand the theory of reversing conditions, only the way of continuing along with what seems natural to them. Their energy gets constrained and things become hidden, all is confused and unclear, and the body gets to the point that it is weakened. When active reaches its peak, there must be passive, then when passive reaches its peak, there will be death.
Herein lies the art of keeping fit, but generally it is not yet well-known. It is a wise person who can understand the art of reversal, grasping the passive and active aspects to compel Nature to invert Qian and Kun [“Creative” and “Receptive” (When the “Creative” trigram is placed on top of the “Receptive” trigram, they form hexagram 12: “Stagnation”. When they are flipped over so the “Receptive” trigram is placed on top of the “Creative” trigram, they form hexagram 11: “Peace”.)] with the mechanism of turning the energies, thereby reverting from the acquired condition to the innate, returning one to one’s original state, guaranteeing a merging with the “grand harmony”. This is never separate from the principles in the acquired five elements techniques or the eight trigrams techniques, nor the methods of continuous expansion and contraction. And so it is said: “From nonpolarity can arise a singleness of energy.”
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby klonk on Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 am

I didn't mean anything that sophisticated. I simply meant that when moving forward, you should be aware of how your musculature moves backward. When moving downward, you should be aware of upward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJTIrib9qrc

I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Tue May 15, 2018 3:23 pm

Article by Dr. Romanov

What is muscle elasticity? If you were to stretch a muscle you would see it shrink back a bit. In plain words, it’s a natural ability to recover to original form upon the removal of the force initially applied. In physical activity it is the ability of muscles to perform work, specifically, to contract rapidly after and immediately prior to extension.

A human body is a mix of physics, geometry, psychology and all that good stuff, so we should not talk about muscles and their function as separate from the whole. Muscles are a part of our entire system, and as such, whatever functions they perform or whatever is going on, it does not happen on its own. There is a whole chain of processes happening.

https://posemethod.com/muscle-elasticity/#!event-list
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Tue May 22, 2018 3:58 am

klonk wrote:I didn't mean anything that sophisticated. I simply meant that when moving forward, you should be aware of how your musculature moves backward. When moving downward, you should be aware of upward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJTIrib9qrc


There is a difference between ideating and generating a sensation, and this sort of bring us to a deeper understanding when we can generate and utilize the springiness in our movements or muscle elasticity.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue May 22, 2018 11:26 am

Don't think these jargons are necessary to get the springiness in movements and beyond. They were written out of good heart. But even a native speaker would have difficulty in getting what the writers were trying to say. They are prompt to various interpretations, make thing complicated and mysterious. create illusion..... It is a double edge sword.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Wed May 23, 2018 12:01 am

Once one got the basics of the stretch and recoil cycle correct then further development into the touch-connect-stick-follow-retaliate cycle is easy. It is just a question theory and practice in one's learning process.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby klonk on Wed May 23, 2018 5:04 pm

In the East, people over-complicate these things. In the West, people over-simplify these things.

Yogi Berra wrote:To gain knowledge, add things every day. To gain wisdom, remove things every day.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu May 24, 2018 10:27 am

touch-connect-stick-follow-retaliate cycle


Old masters taught not to touch. Won't know what are under the sleeves.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Thu May 24, 2018 2:31 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
touch-connect-stick-follow-retaliate cycle


Old masters taught not to touch. Won't know what are under the sleeves.


This is a good example of synthesizing certain techniques with certain strategies of 侠家拳 Xiá jiā quán (Hop Ga) aiming at injure the opponent instead of control.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby klonk on Sat May 26, 2018 6:02 pm

Lam Kam Chuen recommends this exercise: Face a wall, extend your hands, and as soon as you feel contact push suddenly against it.
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Re: A 'synthesis' of internal arts?

Postby Yeung on Sun May 27, 2018 2:34 pm

klonk wrote:Lam Kam Chuen recommends this exercise: Face a wall, extend your hands, and as soon as you feel contact push suddenly against it.


Care needs to be taken not to confuse with gravity, and push suddenly can be concentric, eccentric, or both. Maybe you can just relax your arms on your sides, stretch downward and they will bounce back as you release the tension on your arms.
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