Source for quote on standing

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Source for quote on standing

Postby Appledog on Tue May 29, 2018 12:38 am

Hi, I just did an index of all my stuff to try and find a quote on standing and I just can't find it. Maybe someone here will know where to find it.

Does anyone have a source for the notion that you can just pick any "tai chi" posture for standing? I seem to remember quite a few sources for this but when I went to look I couldn't locate them.

It almost seems like this notion should be obvious so why can't I find a single source for it? I wonder.

Thxz
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Bao on Tue May 29, 2018 2:13 am

Here I quoted from an old interview with Wu Tunan on dingshi (holding postures):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16550&st=0&sk=t&sd=a,

but the original link to the quote is broken. maybe you can google and find the interview somewhere? It's an interesting thread btw.
Last edited by Bao on Tue May 29, 2018 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Trick on Tue May 29, 2018 2:20 am

The whole TJQ form is "holding the posture(frame)"
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Yeung on Wed May 30, 2018 2:13 am

There is a difference between quietness and static, holding a static position is contrary to the concept of continuity in Taijiquan. I have read somewhere that Wu Tunan said he and other students hold their postures while waiting for the teacher to come around to correct them.

Seeking quietness while moving is not the same as holding a posture, even some practitioners of Zhan Zhuang advocate the importance of stretching to all sides.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Bao on Wed May 30, 2018 2:23 am

Yeung wrote:There is a difference between quietness and static, holding a static position is contrary to the concept of continuity in Taijiquan. I have read somewhere that Wu Tunan said he and other students hold their postures while waiting for the teacher to come around to correct them.


No, he advocated standing as a practice. You can read the the quote in the link above. He says that you move very slowly into a posture and, as he proposed, hold it for 6 breath, then slowly move to the next and stay for 6 breath. We stay several minutes in the same posture, letting the body completely rest in the posture before moving into the other. You don't need to move through the whole form, but regardless what, a session for this method takes a long time. It's a rewarding practice, but most Tai chi people don't even know about it.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Yeung on Wed May 30, 2018 6:44 am

Bao wrote:
Yeung wrote:There is a difference between quietness and static, holding a static position is contrary to the concept of continuity in Taijiquan. I have read somewhere that Wu Tunan said he and other students hold their postures while waiting for the teacher to come around to correct them.


No, he advocated standing as a practice. You can read the the quote in the link above. He says that you move very slowly into a posture and, as he proposed, hold it for 6 breath, then slowly move to the next and stay for 6 breath. We stay several minutes in the same posture, letting the body completely rest in the posture before moving into the other. You don't need to move through the whole form, but regardless what, a session for this method takes a long time. It's a rewarding practice, but most Tai chi people don't even know about it.


I am kind of skeptical that Taijiquan practitioners need "to letting the body completely rest in the posture". Using as little as possible brute force to hold will not generate the springy effect in Taijiquan in any case.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Trick on Wed May 30, 2018 8:45 am

As for me whether I practice my form or "standing" I open/close, stretch and contract. I'm not seeking quietness as in meditation, the form might look slow and the standing seemingly static to an untrained eye and mind. I don't know about purely qigong practice, maybe in that field it's about static and seeking meditation quietness.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Bao on Wed May 30, 2018 9:34 am

Yeung wrote:I am kind of skeptical that Taijiquan practitioners need "to letting the body completely rest in the posture". Using as little as possible brute force to hold will not generate the springy effect in Taijiquan in any case.


There’s nothing you “need” to do. It’s just one way to practice, and you can practice it in several ways. It can teach you many things, like a few things about balance for instance. An example is large frame form practice. If you overdo your movements and make them too large you can never keep the same posture for long in dingshi. What you cannot to in dingshi you should not do in form practice, so you can use dingshi to check your posture and alignment, something you should work on when you move. Why springiness must have something to do with it in order to become good practice is sort of mind-boggling... If you believe in it or not is up to you, but disregarding a traditional way of practice suggested by several acclaimed masters without testing it yourself seems like a sort of a not very intelligent thing to do... :-\
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Bob on Wed May 30, 2018 10:05 am

Wang peisheng - old issues of a defunct journal - talks about standing in 7 Star posture

Jou Tsung Hwa - drawing of Yang Cheng Fun dan bian and its expansive effect

Ben Lo - move, hold posture, move may be found in interview in Journal of Asian Martial Arts

Bread & Butter of xiao baji jia taught by Liu Yunqiao
Last edited by Bob on Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed May 30, 2018 10:14 am

There is a lot going on within the body in Dingshi especially at the time the body get very tired. And it is close to impossible to letting the body completely rest in the posture. May be it is how Yeung said it as "quietness and static".
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Bao on Wed May 30, 2018 11:47 am

suckinlhbf wrote:There is a lot going on within the body in Dingshi especially at the time the body get very tired.


Yup. Exactly 8-)

And it is close to impossible to letting the body completely rest in the posture.


In Dingshi, just like if you stand in santi and relax through pain and shaking, other deeper muscles will eventually take over and the shaking and a lot of the pain will disappear. Most of dingshi is not as painful, but you still need to work through that point until you can let the body take command and really show you what it wants.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed May 30, 2018 12:49 pm

the body take command and really show you what it wants


Its fun, likes being drugged. But suffer as hell to the point organs cramp.
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Re: Source for quote on standing

Postby Wuyizidi on Wed May 30, 2018 1:06 pm

Bob wrote:Wang peisheng - old issues of a defunct journal - talks about standing in 7 Star posture
...


http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/7Stars/arti_7star.htm


Appledog wrote:Hi, I just did an index of all my stuff to try and find a quote on standing and I just can't find it. Maybe someone here will know where to find it.

Does anyone have a source for the notion that you can just pick any "tai chi" posture for standing? I seem to remember quite a few sources for this but when I went to look I couldn't locate them.

It almost seems like this notion should be obvious so why can't I find a single source for it? I wonder.

Thxz


Yes, in fact there's a saying in Taiji - every step [in the form] can be a zhuang (standing post) 一步一桩. This is a classic example of reason that to reach mastery, we can't just do what our teacher tell us, but think and investigate on our own. In the end certain things are very hard for an outsider to identify, that only we know our feelings. So check how you feel in each movement, does it feel weak, awkward? Very often if the upper body is uncomfortable, it's because the lower body cannot provide all the strength needed, and the upper body is exerting a counter-balancing force to keep the overall body in neutral position. As the classic saying goes, "keep the effort in the legs". Is this because we lack flexibility, strength, or motor control in a particular direction (for example you had left ankle injury, the outside of that foot is weak, whenever you sprain your ankle it's always in that direction). So whatever movement or position we're uncomfortable in, we need to practice that.

Also, take a look at how you exit a position. You should be able to exit from a pose/posture as easily as you got in. If exiting requires greater effort, that means you're going too low in the pose. As the saying going "you can pick it up, but can you put it down?" Are you so exhausted the foot just drop to the ground with a big sound? One of the hardest movement quality is achieve is "lightness". One aspect of that is control, and control requires strength, not just from major muscles, but from small supporting ones that help with balancing. So next time when you practice, act as if there's a sleeping baby in the room you don't want to wake up: can you do all the movements in the form without making any sounds with your footwork - even on hardwood floor?

So traditionally, when people find they have particular posture they have problem with, outside of regular forms practice, they would hold that posture like in Zhan Zhuang.

Everything starts from the ground, if there are any issues with the foot, it will be reflected above. Try balancing on one foot just one portion of the foot - front, back, inside, outside. If any part feel weak, do more of that.

And we shouldn't limit our supplementary practice to just static ones. Because often it's problem with movement. For example one thing I've doing a lot recently is footwork in all 8 directions (forward - back, left - right, 2 diagonal forward-back). You can check if for any of those, you can go further powered by one leg than the other. Then the other is weaker. We can also check if our shoulder and legs are flexible in all the planes. A lot of times when our movement is not easeful, it's because we lack flexibility, and we try to compensate by using more force (ex. hamstring tight, cannot raise leg high, so we kick harder, trying to get there using momentum).

Overall we'll know we're in a good shape in any position when the lower body has the quality of earth - solid and stable, the mid-body has the quality of water - heavy but fluid, and upper body has the quality of air - light and free.
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Wed May 30, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 14 times in total.
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