Taiji knee?

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Taiji knee?

Postby Yeung on Wed May 30, 2018 7:29 am

Abstract accepted for CP-POSTER presentation format by the 23rd Annual Congress of European College of Sport Science, 4-7 July 2018, Dublin, Ireland

Title: BIOMECHANICAL ANALYSIS OF LOWER EXTREMITY ABOUT THE PATELLOFEMORAL PAIN SYNDROME IN TAIJI ATHLETES
Session: CP-PM03 - BODY COMPOSITION
Enter session CP-PM03
Contact author
AID: 122, Presentation format: CP-POSTER
Authors: DUAN, Y.
Institution: BEIJING RESEARCH INSTITUTE OF SPORT SCIENCE
Country: CHINA, Topic: SPORTS MEDICINE AND ORTHOPEDICS

INTRODUCTION:
Analyse the biomechanical characteristics of patients with patellafemoral pain syndrome in Taiji practice.Through the biomechanical testing and inspection,to find out the connection about the pain with muscle strength?joint mobility and movement,prevetion the iujury about the taiji movement and adapt to the development about taiji.It will help athletes get great performance, promote the Taiji exercise routines and popularity for the public.

METHODS:
Selection of Beijing sports universitys school of martial arts 24 special athletes.Through the three-dimensional videography and force plate data to collect atheletes step action.And through the isokinetic test and joint angle ruler for taijiquan athletes to check for muscle strength and joint mobility.All of this for analysing lower limb mechanics characteristics about athletes.

RESULTS:
1.Biomechanical aspects: In the end of turn phase, the abduction angle of right hip between experimental group and control group have significant difference (P < 0.05). At the end of the feet support, the flexion angle of right knee and the extroversion angle of right knee between experimental group and control group have significant difference (P < 0.05).In turn phase, right ankle dorsiflexion have a significant difference (P < 0.05). The rest had no significant difference.At the step action,the knee stress of exernal rotation is greater at the angle of 30~35°and the knee stress of adduction is the second at the angle of 30~35°.2.Strength:the peak torque/weight in the experimental group has significant difference about knee extension(P < 0.05). And flexion/extension in the peak torque between experimental group and control group have significant difference (P < 0.05).At the experimental group,the best angle of power in the extension is 55~60°, the best angle of power in the flexion is 55~60°.The fagitue index is no different between experimental group and control group.

CONCLUSION:
1.The angle of knee extrovision about athletes with patellafemoral pain syndrome in the step action is a little big.2.Athletes should increase the angle flexion to decrease the stress.3.For taiji athletes with patellofemoral pain syndrome, the angle of hip adduction and ankle dorsiflexion is smaller.4.the quadriceps femoris both sides and the flexion/extension in the peak torque about athletes with patellafemoral pain syndrome is large gap.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Bill on Wed May 30, 2018 7:54 am

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Last edited by Bill on Wed May 30, 2018 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
It hurts when I Pi
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Bill on Wed May 30, 2018 7:59 am

What is knee extrovision ?
It hurts when I Pi
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Yeung on Thu May 31, 2018 4:59 am

From free dictionary:

ex·tro·ver·sion also ex·tra·ver·sion (ĕk′strə-vûr′zhən)
n.
1. Interest in or behavior directed toward others or one's environment rather than oneself.
2. A turning inside out, as of an organ or part.

The leteral movement of of the knee as one push upward in stepping, varus knee.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Appledog on Thu May 31, 2018 5:28 am

Reading between the lines I would call this a shot across the bow.

It seems as if certain forced technical points are the equivalent of doing qigong wrong (well, actually) and what should happen is the player should find his own individual unique stance based on his body mechanics and not some externally forced principles. Principles which may or may not be properly designed.

You know what I mean? It sounds like in the end you cant just change things or remove things and have things still work properly. You gotta listen to what your body is telling you.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Steve James on Thu May 31, 2018 7:00 am

CONCLUSION:
1.The angle of knee extrovision about athletes with patellafemoral pain syndrome in the step action is a little big.
2.Athletes should increase the angle flexion to decrease the stress.
3.For taiji athletes with patellofemoral pain syndrome, the angle of hip adduction and ankle dorsiflexion is smaller.
4.the quadriceps femoris both sides and the flexion/extension in the peak torque about athletes with patellafemoral pain syndrome is large gap.


The English is terrible. "A little bit" and "with patellafemoral pain syndrome is a large gap" are not very technical afa as medical diagnoses (imho). But, in general, some questions come to mind. What was their definition of a tai chi athlete? Were they using tai chi wushu athletes as examples, or did they use people who just practice regularly? Were they practicing a particular style? All tcc practitioners do not do the same things at all.

More generally, how do we know the patellafemoral pain came from doing tcc? And, if that sort of pain is developed by athlete/practitioners in other sports, won't the methods of relieving or preventing such pain be similar? For example, knee pain is common in cyclists and has been studied for a long time. https://www.healthchoicesfirst.com/vide ... in-cycling
Of course, some people who sit all day develop knee pain, just as non-smokers get lung diseases.

It's the old joke, "Doctor, it hurts when I do that" and the doctor replies, "So, don't do it."
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Dmitri on Thu May 31, 2018 9:57 am

Yeung wrote:taiji athletes

-lol-
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Bao on Thu May 31, 2018 10:07 am

Steve James wrote:The English is terrible.


Good to know it's not just me. Very hard to read the text. I have absolutely no idea about what kind of conclusions they made.

Maybe someone care to explain?
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 31, 2018 11:24 am

In 1966 I was playing a Tongan representative rugby union side
I got caught in the bottom of a ruck and one large Tongan decided to pull me out of the ruck by my leg
It destroyed my knee,I had problems with it every season until I learnt tai chi
Tai chi and correct knee placement fixed it
When you hear of well known tai chi people having knee operations and look at how they hula hoop their hips and twist their knees it is no wonder
Chinese who would traditionally squat to talk were to somewhat protected from this
Now days they ,like us sit in chairs,cars and on computers and go the same way westerners do
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Giles on Thu May 31, 2018 3:08 pm

Yeah. In a nutshell:
- If you do tai chi so that the knee in front stance regularly moves beyond the vertical line drawn from the base of the toes and/or you go lower by 'bending the knee', then tai chi will NOT be good for your knees and you can soon end up with inflamed tendons, bursitis and suchlike.
- If you make sure that the knee usually doesn't move beyond the base of the toes and you go lower by softening the inguinal crease and dropping the tailbone (softening the kua) and making a connection directly from hips to feet, with the knee bending as a 'side effect', then your knees will usually be happy joints and can even regenerate.

The former, injury-prone scenario is often a by-product of people having a mental movement image of moving forwards and backwards on a horizontal plane instead of letting gravity take you vertically into the front foot and vertically into the back foot.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Yeung on Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:01 am

Yeung wrote:Abstract accepted for CP-POSTER presentation format by the 23rd Annual Congress of European College of Sport Science, 4-7 July 2018, Dublin, Ireland

Title: BIOMECHANICAL ANALYSIS OF LOWER EXTREMITY ABOUT THE PATELLOFEMORAL PAIN SYNDROME IN TAIJI ATHLETES
Session: CP-PM03 - BODY COMPOSITION
Enter session CP-PM03
Contact author
AID: 122, Presentation format: CP-POSTER
Authors: DUAN, Y.
Institution: BEIJING RESEARCH INSTITUTE OF SPORT SCIENCE
Country: CHINA, Topic: SPORTS MEDICINE AND ORTHOPEDICS


I did not find the CP-Poster at the congress in Dublin, the assumption is that the author did not submit it.

This is a very important study, as the standard practice of contracting the pelvic floor muscles and gripping toes to control the slow ascent and descent movements of the leg will produce the swaying outward efect on the knee joint.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:22 pm

So if you do tai chi incorrectly you will get bad results
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby northern_mantis on Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:23 am

wayne hansen wrote:So if you do tai chi incorrectly you will get bad results


What may further muddy the waters is that correct and incorrect varies between individuals. Everybody’s knee/ankle/hip set up is slightly different so whilst there are arguably some global rules, everybody squats differently and therefore dictating angle of feet on a horse stance for example will eventually break some people. Equally it wouldn’t be good just to say do what feels good for you because that may be good short term and disastrous long term.

I would also argue that low stances should only be transitioned in and out of and not held but I know this isn’t everybody’s cup of tea. There’s so much sink the weight and torque the knee tai chi out there it’s terrifying! Maybe it would be better to use physiotherapists for physiotherapy and tai chi teachers for fighting, I wouldn’t want my bread baked by a butcher. if they contradict then the physios method should come out on top.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby Giles on Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:32 am

@ Wayne + Northern Mantis

Quite a few tai chi teachers seem to have little understanding of what stresses the knee joint and how that can be avoided in practice. Some bring their own knees into unfavourable positions without realising, and others, even if their own movements are more knee-ergonomic, don’t (consistently) correct their students on this issue. On the other hand, what’s good about tai chi when it comes to knees is the awareness (at least among the more able teachers) of how more subtle points of whole body alignment can take the strain off the knees as well. For instance gently extending the neck and letting the lower spine release and hang down, while softening the ‘kua’. Among many other benefits, these actions are also good for the knees. Plus the ability to ‘relax’ legs even as they are carrying body weight, which also takes load off the knees and brings it (chiefly) into the quadriceps, where it belongs. These are things that many physiotherapists (in my experience) don’t have on their radar.

Some tai chi people (also teachers) seem to have bullet-proof knees and can move using very dubious skeletal alignments, especially along the line hip-(knee)-centre of foot without (apparently) suffering any knee problems. Others are not so lucky. Me certainly not – my knees will tell me very quickly if I’m not treating them well.
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Re: Taiji knee?

Postby northern_mantis on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:03 am

[quote="Giles]For instance gently extending the neck and letting the lower spine release and hang down, while softening the ‘kua’. Among many other benefits, these actions are also good for the knees. Plus the ability to ‘relax’ legs even as they are carrying body weight, which also takes load off the knees and brings it (chiefly) into the quadriceps, where it belongs. These are things that many physiotherapists (in my experience) don’t have on their radar[/quote]

Great point. Also allows you to move from the waist without the knees coming along for the ride and getting out of alignment.
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