Yang Style Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:55 am

Secrets keep themselves
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Appledog on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:56 am

Trick wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Yet the feet should arrive before the hand does its job


This, among other details, is what I was shown behind closed doors by several masters in CMC's lineage, and one of the keys to generating fajin in Yang style.

You, sir, are very generous by giving this away in a public forum. ;)

Is that supposed to be a secret?


I think it's meaningless. if CJW thinks he's being generous that's one thing but it seems that the point of what I was asking hasn't been grasped yet. In any case it seems as if Yang style and it's derivatives don't have this teaching, at least in the same way I've heard it expressed elsewhere.

Just doing some research.. some digging... interesting stuff all around.. thanks

my suspicions are largely confirmed
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:54 am

it seems as if Yang style and it's derivatives don't have this teaching, at least in the same way I've heard it expressed elsewhere.
...
my suspicions are largely confirmed


You haven't heard about yang fast frames? (Banhou/Shaohou lineages) Many practitioners understand fast frame as hands leading, body follows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QRj4aqLsu8

Last edited by Bao on Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:28 am

To tell an ignorant man a secret is to keep it to yourself
I revealed no secrets it is just basics
If you think no one has answered your question two things are possible
One no one here is up to your standard
Or we didn't understand your question
Might you be able to make the question simpler for us dummies
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Appledog on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:48 pm

wayne hansen wrote:To tell an ignorant man a secret is to keep it to yourself
I revealed no secrets it is just basics
If you think no one has answered your question two things are possible
One no one here is up to your standard
Or we didn't understand your question
Might you be able to make the question simpler for us dummies


I don't think you're a dummy :) but,

What is the relationship between daoyin and qigong?
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:45 pm

Appledog wrote:What is the relationship between daoyin and qigong?


Qigong is a modern term. The goal in modern qigong systems is to circulate qi, direct qi or make it easier for the qi to flow. But playing around with qi is not the goal in Daoyin. Qi is the most essential or a goal in itself in neither Daoyin or neidan practice.

Tai Chi is derived from Daoyin and Neidan, not from modern qigong thinking. So Tai Chi is actually not qigong. Qigong is not even a part of Tai Chi. Though some people believe that they use Tai Chi as qigong, but even they believe so mostly they do not.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:32 pm

So many different systems of Tao yin and chi Kung how could you ever answer that question
It is like noi gung ,I have so many things called noi gung lately that aren't even good chi gung
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:59 pm

In my experience, the so-called "secrets" in IMA are, in most cases, the small minute details hidden within the basics that are usually overlooked -- little things that, when done right, can make a world of difference.

Any garden-variety CMAist will tell you that hands and feet must arrive at the same time in order to generate whole-body power, and consider feet arriving before hands a mistake caused by the lack of coordination. But in Taiji, hands and feet arriving at the same time is a classic case of double heaviness and a big no-no.

Can you still generate power by landing the hands and the feet at the same time? Yes, but it wouldn't be Taiji anymore. It's something that many people, even Taiji practitioners, fail to understand or haven't paid attention to.

And this stuff isn't just found in Yang, it's in all of the traditional (legit) Taiji styles, though some more obvious than others.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:31 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Feet first is for training

For training what?

wayne hansen wrote:Yet the feet should arrive before the hand does its job.

What's the purpose of this?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:33 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Any garden-variety CMAist will tell you that hands and feet must arrive at the same time in order to generate whole-body power, and consider feet arriving before hands a mistake caused by the lack of coordination. But in Taiji, hands and feet arriving at the same time is a classic case of double heaviness and a big no-no.

6 Harmony applies to all CMA systems and Taiji included.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:14 pm

I am with JW on this. The 6H is the 6H regardless variations of footwork or stance.

IME, when you put down the foot is of less important. As your fist connects with the target there must still be a direct and instant connection between hand and foot. If you use transition from stance to stance or if you use following step it is still the same. For following step the foot leads before the hand, but when striking, the connection upon impact remains the same.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:14 pm

The purpose of 6 harmony is for body unification. You have 2 arms and 2 legs, without coordination, you will have maximum 4 moves. with coordination, you can reduce down to 2 moves.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:44 pm

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Any garden-variety CMAist will tell you that hands and feet must arrive at the same time in order to generate whole-body power, and consider feet arriving before hands a mistake caused by the lack of coordination. But in Taiji, hands and feet arriving at the same time is a classic case of double heaviness and a big no-no.

6 Harmony applies to all CMA systems and Taiji included.


Sorry to say this, John. But you really need to go talk to a good Taiji teacher and find out more about it before jumping to your conclusion.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:56 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Sorry to say this, John. But you really need to go talk to a good Taiji teacher and find out more about it before jumping to your conclusion.

Give me a reason why 6 harmony is wrong.

If your legs are "locked" but your hand is still moving, it's wrong no matter what style that you may train.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:01 pm





Take a very close look at the performances of these two well-known masters from Yang and Chen respectively.

If you don't see it, chances are you haven't been exposed to this type of movements and do not yet fully understand double-heaviness -- and how to avoid it.
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