Yang Style Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Style Question

Postby I-mon on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:16 pm

I still don't know what double-heaviness means, but that is my favourite video of Feng Zhiqiang.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:32 pm

6 harmony fries with that
5 bows would you like an upsize
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 pm

If your opponent borrow your force when you commit

- 100%, you may be in big trouble. But you will have more knock down power.
- 70%, you may be in less trouble. But you will have less knock down power.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:31 pm

I-mon wrote:I still don't know what double-heaviness means, but that is my favourite video of Feng Zhiqiang.

Click on CC for English subtitles.

Channel of Taiji Teachers Association
Published on May 29, 2018

Yang Jun is the grandson of Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫). He gave a very clear explanation on what Double-Heaviness (双重) really means:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwalo0BFyMY
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:27 am

I too have no theoretical clue what "double heaviness" mean, but I'm sure I instinctively knew all about it when push- handing or other sparring whether I end up on on my back or stand tall, - I guess double heaviness kind of mean clumsy non harmonious move
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:23 am

marvin8 wrote:
I-mon wrote:I still don't know what double-heaviness means, but that is my favourite video of Feng Zhiqiang.

Click on CC for English subtitles.

Channel of Taiji Teachers Association
Published on May 29, 2018

Yang Jun is the grandson of Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫). He gave a very clear explanation on what Double-Heaviness (双重) really means:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwalo0BFyMY


I can tell this teacher knows his stuff, but in terms of his explanations, he still didn't give away the goods. ;)
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby I-mon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:20 am

Does it just mean that all of your weight is committed to one side, so you're very easy to unbalance or throw?
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:35 am

I-mon wrote:Does it just mean that all of your weight is committed to one side, so you're very easy to unbalance or throw?


No, you can have all weight on one leg as long as you don't get stuck or lock yourself in that kind of posture. Look at Tai Chi with following step for instance, there you mostly end the posture with the whole weight on one leg. Double weighted just means the inability to change. There are a few ways you can screw up things for yourself. If someone pushes you, or (more likely) try to throw you, and you put yourself into a position where you are unable to move or go against with strength, this is being double weighted. Distinguishing yin and yang, empty and solid will help. But you need to adjust to your opponents movements in a way so you can always change between yin/yang and empty/solid.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:35 am

marvin8 wrote:Yang Jun is the grandson of Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫)

Great grandson ?
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:48 am

Bao wrote:
I-mon wrote:Does it just mean that all of your weight is committed to one side, so you're very easy to unbalance or throw?


No, you can have all weight on one leg as long as you don't get stuck or lock yourself in that kind of posture. Look at Tai Chi with following step for instance, there you mostly end the posture with the whole weight on one leg. Double weighted just means the inability to change. There are a few ways you can screw up things for yourself. If someone pushes you, or (more likely) try to throw you, and you put yourself into a position where you are unable to move or go against with strength, this is being double weighted. Distinguishing yin and yang, empty and solid will help. But you need to adjust to your opponents movements in a way so you can always change between yin/yang and empty/solid.

Yes this what I had in mind when I wrote "clumsy and non harmonious move", thanks. It's quite a "beautiful" feeling whether being led into it or being the leading guy 8-)
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby charles on Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:15 am

C.J.W. wrote:If you don't see it, chances are you haven't been exposed to this type of movements and do not yet fully understand double-heaviness -- and how to avoid it.


One of the interesting questions that goes hand and hand with this is, how, in your style is yin and yang, empty and full, separated/distinguished? :o
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:02 am

charles wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:If you don't see it, chances are you haven't been exposed to this type of movements and do not yet fully understand double-heaviness -- and how to avoid it.


One of the interesting questions that goes hand and hand with this is, how, in your style is yin and yang, empty and full, separated/distinguished? :o


Well, what promoted this little side discussion in the first place was my response to what Mr. Wayne Hansen wrote about how the feet should always arrive before the hands do. In the lines of Taiji I've been exposed to, that little fact right there is considered a fundamental and crucial principle, and one of the keys to understanding the separation of Yin and Yang as well as empty/full/double-heaviness.

It is also what distinguishes Taiji from many other styles of MAs because, as I stated in an earlier post, the vast majority of MAists believe that the hands and the feet should arrive "at the same time" in order to observe six harmonies and achieve maximum power.

Hands and feet arriving at the same time is, in my understanding of Taiji, a classic case of double-heaviness -- something I am pretty sure that you are already aware of.

But based on the responses from some of the other members, it's pretty obvious that they do not know what I am talking about.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:20 am

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Sorry to say this, John. But you really need to go talk to a good Taiji teacher and find out more about it before jumping to your conclusion.

Give me a reason why 6 harmony is wrong.

If your legs are "locked" but your hand is still moving, it's wrong no matter what style that you may train.


Just because my feet have landed, it doesn't mean that my legs are locked or that the rest of my body stops moving. ;)

Sounds unnatural? You bet. The real good Taiji --or any high-level IMA for that matter --I've been exposed to is ALL ABOUT training unnatural movements until they become natural.


Unnatural movements are what produce unusual power and results.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:09 am

That's what I love about this site, a perfectly simple and straightforward question answered so cautiously by so many people as to render the discussion so meaningless that we've actually reached a point where we question the presence of six harmonies in Taijiquan.

Luckily I don't care about looking stupid.

I chewed this idea with the guys at the push hands group yesterday, and basically, you've got to be clear about your terms. What is Lead? What is Body? What is Hand? When are we talking? Positioning or striking?

Does the hand always arrive after the foot? No, of course not, just look at, well, ANY overtly expressed kick in Yang style. The hands and kicking foot coordinate. Even in stances like White Crane spreads wing, the implied kick happens as the hands complete their movements. Neither the foot nor the hand movements are necessarily a strike, even. is "arriving" even a proper word to use?

Sometimes a foot is a hand.

If you consider that the power starts in the feet, is developed by the waist, and expressed in the hands, then we can define foot as the substantial point of contact with the earth, earth as the solid surface gravity is holding you to, and hand as the point of contact/manipulation of the partner/object. Waist is yao/dantien. It has nothing to do with hands, the body is covered in hands.

To that end, it's obvious that the "foot" must be in proper position before power can be used, but simply being in a location isn't the end of the foot's job. It still has to contribute to 9 joint harmony/ six harmonies in the expression of power. The body is a hand. There's stuff going on that you can't see from outside.

Regarding hands or body leading, to reiterate although nobody asked. The hands (point of contact) are, like the eyes normally, the single biggest conveyor of information about the partner. They inform through ting jin. In that respect they "lead" in that they provide the intelligence concerning the stimulus that informs the response, but they do not "lead" in the sense that the hands do not get into position to affect the partner and then drag the body with them. Ting informs the mind which develops the intention, the nine joints then work simultaneously (as needed) to manifest the intention. I say as needed because sometimes we do need to move with break timing, but that's edge case movement.

I also see this as markedly different than the body or hip "leading" the hands as in getting somewhere and letting the hands follow, or "driving" the movement in isolation. Look at Tung Ying Chieh, as he take positioning steps there is matching movement on the opposite side. 6H. Efficient movement doesn't work without it. Yang just refers to it by different names. Unity of upper and lower, for example. Instead of hands and body leading we have Yi->Qi->Jing and Feet->Waist->Hands as discussed earlier.

This stuff just seems simple, direct, and obvious to me. I don't see how it gets so obfuscated and complicated.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:27 am

C.J.W. wrote:It is also what distinguishes Taiji from many other styles of MAs because, as I stated in an earlier post, the vast majority of MAists believe that the hands and the feet should arrive "at the same time" in order to observe six harmonies and achieve maximum power. . . .

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Sorry to say this, John. But you really need to go talk to a good Taiji teacher and find out more about it before jumping to your conclusion.

Give me a reason why 6 harmony is wrong.

If your legs are "locked" but your hand is still moving, it's wrong no matter what style that you may train.


Just because my feet have landed, it doesn't mean that my legs are locked or that the rest of my body stops moving. ;)

Sounds unnatural? You bet.
The real good Taiji --or any high-level IMA for that matter --I've been exposed to is ALL ABOUT training unnatural movements until they become natural.


Unnatural movements are what produce unusual power and results.

It sounds natural. In boxing, power involves the weight transfer from one hip to the other. One doesn't need to step (both feet on the ground) to deliver power, just shift the weight by folding the hip (open/close). When taking a step, it is still the weight shift that is important, not when the foot lands. Every punch doesn't need to be a power punch (e.g., set up or combinations).
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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