Yang Style Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Style Question

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:39 pm

In talking about double weighted.
We use it to mean mind and body at the same point,
or some might say center of mass at the same point.
Reflected in inability or unable to change feels very solid...

What double light means is just the opposite both mind or center
and body are gone typicaly reflected in a collapsed state.

what is called taiji is both at the same time....at the same point.

The clip demos base of support showing the empty and full of a center,
this can be applied to any point of contact.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX0gzfXNWqo
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Appledog on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:42 am

windwalker wrote:In talking about double weighted.
We use it to mean mind and body at the same point,
or some might say center of mass at the same point.
Reflected in inability or unable to change feels very solid...

What double light means is just the opposite both mind or center
and body are gone typicaly reflected in a collapsed state.

what is called taiji is both at the same time....at the same point.

The clip demos base of support showing the empty and full of a center,
this can be applied to any point of contact.


I thought in Tai Chi, double heavy means two or more centers of origin -- the dantian and some other place?
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:17 pm

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Changeability is the term many Taiji teachers like to throw around...

When you commit 100%, you don't want to change.

I have put this clip into slow speed. You can see his hand and foot arrived at the same time (not foot arrived first and hand arrived later).



Yes, his hand and foot move in the same direction, arrive at the same time, and keep moving after the throw. That's why he's double-heavy, especially at 0:14. His back foot is in the air, and he is standing on tip toes of the front foot. If his partner had grabbed onto him as he fell, he would have fallen to the the ground with him.

Committing 100%, or 100 Yang, is classic, classic double-heaviness.

You should always be 50% Yang and 50% Yin at ALL TIMES -- not matter how you move.

That's what makes Taiji (and IMA in general) different.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:31 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
Committing 100%, or 100 Yang, is classic, classic double-heaviness.

You should always be 50% Yang and 50% Yin at ALL TIMES -- not matter how you move.

That's what makes Taiji (and IMA in general) different.


All Arts do this you have yet to illustrate what specifically you mean by this and show it used in a practical way that demonstrates it.

Anyone who fights and is good at it is not double weighted. Double weighted or double light is not unique to taiji but maybe unique to it is the observation of it.

Something to be avoided. Something that good MA do as a matter of course.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:24 pm

windwalker wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:
Committing 100%, or 100 Yang, is classic, classic double-heaviness.

You should always be 50% Yang and 50% Yin at ALL TIMES -- not matter how you move.

That's what makes Taiji (and IMA in general) different.


All Arts do this you have yet to illustrate what specifically you mean by this and show it used in a practical way that demonstrates it.

Anyone who fights and is good at it is not double weighted. Double weighted or double light is not unique to taiji but maybe unique to it is the observation of it.

Something to be avoided. Something that good MA do as a matter of course.


Frankly, I must say I am quite shocked to hear you say this. :o :-\

Please refer to my new discussion thread.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:42 pm

C.J.W. wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzI2pHC3Ti4&feature=youtu.be

Yes, his hand and foot move in the same direction, arrive at the same time, and keep moving after the throw. That's why he's double-heavy, especially at 0:14. His back foot is in the air, and he is standing on tip toes of the front foot. If his partner had grabbed onto him as he fell, he would have fallen to the the ground with him.

To prevent your opponent from dragging you down, you will need to control his arms. When I use "knee seize", I like to enter through an angle that I can use my opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. If I can push on my opponent's leading arm elbow joint, both of his hands cannot reach my body.

It takes a lot of training time to be able to develop "keep moving after throw - take your opponent down and then take off" ability. Apparently Taiji doesn't have this kind of training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnL-Kh3 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HcNQa ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:02 pm

johnwang wrote:It takes a lot of training time to be able to develop "keep moving after throw - take your opponent down and then take off" ability. Apparently Taiji doesn't have this kind of training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnL-Kh3 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HcNQa ... e=youtu.be


Your are right. It's not in Taiji as far as I know. This is using forward-moving momentum for power with no concern for stability, like a runner charging through the finish line.

I call this type of single-directional movement "putting all your eggs in one basket;" you may be able to win big, but also lose big. ;)
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:24 am

In real life, as on the battlefield or on the streets, you cannot sacrifice your own balance. This is the difference between practicing for real life or practicing for sports.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:19 am

To apply a throw,

1. Taji guys try to maintain their own balance.
2. SC guys don't mind to lose their balance as long as they can recover it afterward.
3. BJJ guys love to lose their balance and drag their opponent down.

1, 2, 3 are all correct. IMO, there is no such thing as right or wrong but "trade off".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:29 am

johnwang wrote:To apply a throw,

1. Taji guys try to maintain their own balance.
2. SC guys don't mind to lose their balance as long as they can recover it afterward.
3. BJJ guys love to lose their balance and drag their opponent down.

1, 2, 3 are all correct. IMO, there is no such thing as right or wrong but "trade off".


If there is a brawl, many people involved and broken glass everywhere, let's see how many SC guys who would be willing to sacrifice their own balance and how many BJJ guys who would want to take the fight to the floor.

I don't claim that anything is better or worse. Sport is great, but still, practicing for sport and practicing for real life are two different things.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:11 am

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:To apply a throw,

1. Taji guys try to maintain their own balance.
2. SC guys don't mind to lose their balance as long as they can recover it afterward.
3. BJJ guys love to lose their balance and drag their opponent down.

1, 2, 3 are all correct. IMO, there is no such thing as right or wrong but "trade off".


If there is a brawl, many people involved and broken glass everywhere, let's see how many SC guys who would be willing to sacrifice their own balance and how many BJJ guys who would want to take the fight to the floor.

I don't claim that anything is better or worse. Sport is great, but still, practicing for sport and practicing for real life are two different things.


True. So how would Tai Chi deal with this?

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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:26 am

True. So how would Tai Chi deal with this?


"Tai Chi" is not a person, it's an art practiced by different individuals. It deals with nothing. If you really meant to ask about how "a tai chi practitioner" would deal with it, then it depends on what kind of Tai chi that person was practicing, former experience and individual traits, daily shape, age, amongst other things. It's impossible to generalise.

... But I think you knew that. ;)
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:51 pm

RobP3 wrote: So how would Tai Chi deal with this?

In general, Taiji guys

- are afraid to take risk.
- don't want to commit.
- always want to take.
- are not willing to give.

IMO, the following clip shows the opposite of most Taiji guys will do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLgPpWD ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:24 pm

Well you know what they say about generalizations and armadillo assholes
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby middleway on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:37 pm

"Tai Chi" is not a person, it's an art practiced by different individuals. It deals with nothing.... It's impossible to generalise


SC guys who would be willing to sacrifice their own balance and how many BJJ guys who would want to take the fight to the floor.


Hope you can see the congnative dissonance here.
Last edited by middleway on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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