Avoiding double-heaviness

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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Interloper on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:44 am

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I know that you can be double weighted while standing on one leg.

Now you have really confused me. Is this double weighted?

Image


Depends, what happens when you pull on his hand?


I am addressing these two old posts, because, IMO, they give the best lead-in into what my perception of "double-weightedness" is.

Basically, if all of your mass and balance are concentrated on one side of the body, so that you can be pulled, pushed, knocked, or leg-hooked off your center, then you are double-weighted. In the photo of Yang Jwing-Ming doing an application of "Jin Gi Ju Li," he has great balance; however, he is double-weighted with all his mass dedicated to the right side of his body. He's using passive balancing of his mass with his alignment to maintain his stance and structure.

In the internal martial arts, there is a complementary-opposite/counter-weighting of the opposite side of the body that keeps you stable, even when you are on one foot. However, it is not a passive process of simply positioning an arm or leg in such a way that its weight provides the counter-balance. Rather, it is a very active process of contracting very specific muscles on opposite sides of the body to create a simultaneous "push-pull" or "draw-propel" effect, cross-body. The manipulation of connective tissues is like an "X" with the right hip connected to the left shoulder, and the left hip connected to the right shoulder. The right hip draws down as the left shoulder area draws up; the left hip draws down as the right shoulder area draws up.

This has the effect of sending power into the hand and foot that feels either "full" or "empty" (depending on what the practitioner wants it to be) when the opponent contacts it, because there is counter-force feeding it or drawing it from the opposite hip and foot. It also allows the practitioner to manipulate the degree of contraction and expansion to maintain stability while standing on one foot. In that photo of Yang Jwing Ming, if he were using this cross-body dynamic, and someone pulled his right arm, he would counter it by condensing in his left hip and some other areas of soft "Yin" tissues, drawing his opponent down to the ground, without losing his own one-footed stance.

Again... an active process requiring specialized use of particular muscles and connective tissues - not one of passively shifting one's weight and alignment to deal with changes in force from an opponent.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:44 pm

Ttt
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:20 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Ttt

Is TTT bumping the topic to the top?

Or is it: That's the Truth? Thought That Too? If so, which post are you referring to?
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby charles on Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:35 am

oragami_itto wrote:What do you say changes, then?


To put it succinctly, and in cryptic traditional language, Yin and Yang.

The key is to understand how one practically, effectively, separates Yin from Yang. If you can't separate/"distinguish" them to begin with, you can't change that separation later. If you can't change that, you can become double-weighted. The "Classics" state that pretty clearly, though they don't provide a (readily accessible) recipe for how to achieve it. How to achieve that is what you are supposed to learn from your teacher, which brings us back to what Jaspalfi posted. In that context, you might want to re-read what he posted.
Last edited by charles on Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:55 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:What do you say changes, then?


To put it succinctly, and in cryptic traditional language, Yin and Yang.

Yes earlier in the thread I defined it as such.

But we're beyond that depth now, what is Yin and Yang? They don't have independent existence. You aren't carrying five yin and five Yang and the Challenge is to keep them from touching. They're qualities relative to objects, forces, and energies. A leg could be yin relative to movement and Yang relative to weight.

So what is it you are saying changes the quantities or qualities of yin and Yang expressed within or without the body when one is not double weighted? Meaning what parts of the body, aspects or energies or whatever, is it that you are changing yin and yang within and around? And what is the effect of doing so?
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby charles on Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:07 am

oragami_itto wrote:So what is it you are saying changes the quantities or qualities of yin and Yang expressed within or without the body when one is not double weighted? Meaning what parts of the body, aspects or energies or whatever, is it that you are changing yin and yang within and around? And what is the effect of doing so?


Interloper gave an example in her last post.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:24 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:What do you say changes, then?


To put it succinctly, and in cryptic traditional language, Yin and Yang.

Yes earlier in the thread I defined it as such.

But we're beyond that depth now, what is Yin and Yang? They don't have independent existence. You aren't carrying five yin and five Yang and the Challenge is to keep them from touching. They're qualities relative to objects, forces, and energies. A leg could be yin relative to movement and Yang relative to weight.

So what is it you are saying changes the quantities or qualities of yin and Yang expressed within or without the body when one is not double weighted? Meaning what parts of the body, aspects or energies or whatever, is it that you are changing yin and yang within and around? And what is the effect of doing so?

Don't know if this helps but, here is an excerpt from "T’Ai Chi Ch’uan for Health and Self-Defense:"
T.T. Liang wrote:Stand like a balanced scale; move actively like a cartwheel.

"Stand like a balanced scale" means that the body should be erect and relaxed without inclining or leaning in any direction, able to withstand attacks from all directions. "Move actively like a cartwheel" means that the lowest vertebrae are plumb erect and the head is straight as if suspended from above, so that a perpendicular line is formed like the axis of a cartwheel. Then in any movement the turning of the body is active like the turning of a wheel. The T'ai Chi" Classics say: "When the opponent puts pressure on the left, the left becomes insubstantial; when pressure is brought on the right, the right becomes empty." Neutralize also means attack. Your body is so light and nimble that it turns like a cartwheel and all the attacking energy from an opponent is neutralized to the side of your body.

If you keep your weight on one side you can adapt to all circumstances; if you "double-weight," your actions will be impeded.

When riding a bicycle, if you step on the pedal with your right foot, putting weight on it while leaving the left foot unweighted, the wheel of the bicycle can turn and move forward without hindrance. If you step on the pedals trying to put weight on both feet at the same time, the wheel will be impeded and will not turn at all. The principle of Tai Chi is the same. When you are ready to push an opponent with two hands attached to his body, you must find the substantial and insubstantial part of his body first and then push with one hand, using.no energy with the other hand. Then he will be pushed over easily. If you push him using energy with both hands, you are in danger of losing balance and being pushed over if he uses "Roll Back" and suddenly turns his body to the side.

If you step forward with your right foot, you must first shift your weight entirely to the left foot so that the movement will be light and nimble. When you practice the solo postures of Tai Chi, if you step forward with your right foot your right heel must touch the ground first, as you shift all your weight to the left foot, leaving no weight on the right foot. As soon as you find that the place you are touching with the right heel is solid and secure, you shift your weight to the right foot. If you find that the place is not solid or is insecure, you can immediately withdraw your foot to the rear. If you step forward with weight on both feet, you will immediately fall into a trap If you step recklessly in daily life, you may be hurt or become involved in a fatal accident. Furthermore, if you step forward with weight on both feet, the opponent can sweep your foot and you will be easily knocked over. This is why you ca n adapt to any circumstance by keeping your weight on one side. And if you double-weight, your actions will be impeded, so from the T'ai Chi point of view you will be in a "ready to be beaten posture."

We often see one who has painstakingly practiced Tai Chi for several years but cannot neutralize an attacking energy and is generally subdued by an opponent. This is because he has still not understood the fault of double-weighting.

To collide with your opponent, to push your opponent with energy on both hands, to put energy in your upper torso when doing the postures, to step forward and backward with weight on both feet, and to find the opponent's defect and obtain a superior position of your own by using a hand block are all defects of double-weighting.
These defects must be avoided. Otherwise even a whole lifetime of practice will be of no avail. It will be of no use for self-defense or as a physical exercise.

If you want to avoid this defect, you must know Yin and Yang.

If you want to avoid the defect of double-weighting you must know the principle of Yin and Yang. Yin is insubstantial and Yang is substantial. When the opponent attacks the left side of your body, you must withdraw your body and shift your weight to the rear foot, neutralizing the attacking energy by turning your body to the left. The left then becomes insubstan­tial while you counterattack with your right hand, which becomes substantial.

To adhere is to withdraw; to withdraw is to adhere. Yang does not leave Yin and Yin does not leave Yang. The coordination of Yin and Yang can be called interpreting energy.

When your opponent strikes you (i.e., a substantial or Yang force comes to your body), you should neutralize his striking energy by yielding and withdrawing so that your body becomes insubstantial or Yin. Your hands or another part of your body should adhere to his body without leaving any gap. When your opponent withdraws his body (which then becomes insubstantial or Yin), you should immediately follow up, letting your hands lightly adhere to his body leaving no gap, so that you are ready to attack at any moment with Yang. By moving back and forth in this way, the Yin and Yang mutually wax and wane This is called, " Yin does not leave Yang; Yang does not leave Yin." If you can adapt yourself to the circumstances without the slightest error, the Yin and Yang will be in perfect coordination and you will have acquired the technique of interpreting energy in T'ai Chi Ch' uan.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby charles on Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:14 am

oragami_itto wrote:But we're beyond that depth now, what is Yin and Yang? They don't have independent existence. You aren't carrying five yin and five Yang and the Challenge is to keep them from touching. They're qualities relative to objects, forces, and energies. A leg could be yin relative to movement and Yang relative to weight.


What you seem to be describing is an academic/intellectual understanding rather than one of a practical implementation. Ideally one learns the practical implementation from a skilled teacher.

So what is it you are saying changes the quantities or qualities of yin and Yang expressed within or without the body when one is not double weighted? Meaning what parts of the body, aspects or energies or whatever, is it that you are changing yin and yang within and around? And what is the effect of doing so?


That depends upon the style and teacher.

In the styles/teachers I've been exposed to, it involves establishing a centre. Things on one side of that centre move in a direction, things on the other side of that centre move in the opposite direction. That is, movement of body parts is coordinated, but not unified. It becomes part of how you move. As such, it should be introduced at the earliest of one's training, else one is training something else that they will have to unlearn to move this way.

From what I've been taught, this is an example of "double-weighted" (video chosen more or less at random): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Z7kys ... gs=pl%2Cwn
Last edited by charles on Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:29 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:18 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:But we're beyond that depth now, what is Yin and Yang? They don't have independent existence. You aren't carrying five yin and five Yang and the Challenge is to keep them from touching. They're qualities relative to objects, forces, and energies. A leg could be yin relative to movement and Yang relative to weight.


What you seem to be describing is an academic/intellectual understanding rather than one of a practical implementation. Ideally one learns the practical implementation from a skilled teacher.


I definitely agree that the guidance and instruction of a skilled teacher is indispensable. What I intend to describe is the practical and effective movement and conditions affected by double weightedness beyond the simple duality of One Yin, One Yang as described below.

In the styles/teachers I've been exposed to, it involves establishing a centre. Things on one side of that centre move in a direction, things on the other side of that centre move in the opposite direction. That is, movement of body parts is coordinated, but not unified. It becomes part of how you move. As such, it should be introduced at the earliest of one's training, else one is training something else that they will have to unlearn to move this way.


That is definitely an accurate and useful conceptualization, but it's the most basic layer of the concept. It's dividing the body into two parts, left/right. What happens when you're using the cross-body connections as described by interloper? That is a division of four parts, left/right/upper/lower, and the understanding of the same concept becomes a bit more complex. How does it change when dealing purely with the forces of gravity versus adding the forces of an opponent? The understanding becomes even more complex, most simply (self + other)(left/right/upper/lower), multiplied by the variations of forces.

More simply and concretely, what are "things" on either side of the centre and how are they moving.

oragami_itto wrote:I'm with Charles in that the most succinct understanding is whether or not one can change, body shape, force vector, balance point, "ground path" etc. Double weightedness is the opposite of agility


I editorialized a bit from my own understanding, expanding on what you'd said, but you made a point of saying you didn't say those specific things, so that was where I wanted to get a bit more specificity out of you as far as what is changing, beyond the nebulous Yin/Yang.

Yes, we can say that the cause of Double Weightedness is a lack of separation of Yin and Yang, and that when Double Weighted one can't change until Yin and Yang have been separated, and that is also correct, accurate and useful.

So what do we change to separate Yin and Yang? The specific relaxation and tension in specific muscles that will change our body shape, shifting our centers of mass and gravity, thereby moving or changing our balance point, and changing the flow of forces through and around our body. When we're double weighted and bound up we can't change those things as quickly and freely as when we're free and not double weighted.

I am honestly and humbly just asking you what specifically you disagree with in that description.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Interloper on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:43 am

charles wrote:In the styles/teachers I've been exposed to, it involves establishing a centre. Things on one side of that centre move in a direction, things on the other side of that centre move in the opposite direction. That is, movement of body parts is coordinated, but not unified. It becomes part of how you move. As such, it should be introduced at the earliest of one's training, else one is training something else that they will have to unlearn to move this way.


In the styles and teachers I've been exposed to, The movement of body parts is unified. A lot of solo training is involved with finding and developing the connections in specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia that create neural and mechanical pathways between upper and lower body, and from the diagonals/cross-body.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby charles on Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:35 am

oragami_itto wrote:That is definitely an accurate and useful conceptualization, but it's the most basic layer of the concept.


Yes it is. You are asking very basic questions. I'm providing very basic answers. It doesn't make sense to provide answers that require a more advanced understanding if one doesn't understand the very basics.


It's dividing the body into two parts, left/right.


No, that is your interpretation of what I wrote. I didn't say that. Re-read what I wrote.

What happens when you're using the cross-body connections as described by interloper? That is a division of four parts, left/right/upper/lower, and the understanding of the same concept becomes a bit more complex.


Yes it does. But, you have to first understand the more basic situation, before a more complex one. Learn to walk before learning to run.

How does it change when dealing purely with the forces of gravity versus adding the forces of an opponent?


The method of dealing with forces/moving doesn't change. What changes is that there can be additional forces to deal with.


More simply and concretely, what are "things" on either side of the centre and how are they moving.


That's the right question. It varies depending upon teacher and style. In my experience, many teachers have no answer to that question because they haven't recognized/implemented the question.


I provided you a specific (video) example of someone doing a common action that is double-weighted. Until you know what's wrong with what he is doing, you can't begin to correct it. Start there and we'll have a basis for a deeper discussion. Taijiquan isn't an academic/intellectual art: mostly, one learns the art by doing it (correctly). Start with doing what he is doing and then we can begin to explore how to correct it, in so much as is possible by communicating in a written forum.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby charles on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:38 am

Interloper wrote:In the styles and teachers I've been exposed to, The movement of body parts is unified.


As I said, it varies by style and teacher. What is considered "right" for one style is often "wrong" for another.

A lot of solo training is involved with finding and developing the connections in specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia that create neural and mechanical pathways between upper and lower body, and from the diagonals/cross-body.


That should be true whether one trains for unification or coordination.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Interloper on Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:45 pm

Yep. Just comparing notes. :) We come from a lot of different traditions, here. Even the term "double-weighted" can mean different things to different schools and systems.

charles wrote:
Interloper wrote:In the styles and teachers I've been exposed to, The movement of body parts is unified.


As I said, it varies by style and teacher. What is considered "right" for one style is often "wrong" for another.

A lot of solo training is involved with finding and developing the connections in specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia that create neural and mechanical pathways between upper and lower body, and from the diagonals/cross-body.


That should be true whether one trains for unification or coordination.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby charles on Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:10 pm

Interloper wrote:Yep. Just comparing notes. :) We come from a lot of different traditions, here. Even the term "double-weighted" can mean different things to different schools and systems.


True. Thanks for sharing your experience and understanding.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:08 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:That is definitely an accurate and useful conceptualization, but it's the most basic layer of the concept.


Yes it is. You are asking very basic questions. I'm providing very basic answers. It doesn't make sense to provide answers that require a more advanced understanding if one doesn't understand the very basics.


It's dividing the body into two parts, left/right.


No, that is your interpretation of what I wrote. I didn't say that. Re-read what I wrote.

What happens when you're using the cross-body connections as described by interloper? That is a division of four parts, left/right/upper/lower, and the understanding of the same concept becomes a bit more complex.


Yes it does. But, you have to first understand the more basic situation, before a more complex one. Learn to walk before learning to run.

How does it change when dealing purely with the forces of gravity versus adding the forces of an opponent?


The method of dealing with forces/moving doesn't change. What changes is that there can be additional forces to deal with.


More simply and concretely, what are "things" on either side of the centre and how are they moving.


That's the right question. It varies depending upon teacher and style. In my experience, many teachers have no answer to that question because they haven't recognized/implemented the question.


I provided you a specific (video) example of someone doing a common action that is double-weighted. Until you know what's wrong with what he is doing, you can't begin to correct it. Start there and we'll have a basis for a deeper discussion. Taijiquan isn't an academic/intellectual art: mostly, one learns the art by doing it (correctly). Start with doing what he is doing and then we can begin to explore how to correct it, in so much as is possible by communicating in a written forum.


I'm sure your skill and knowledge of taijiquan far exceeds my own. It seems that the gap in understanding is too great for this conversation to be worthwhile any longer. Thanks for your input.
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