Avoiding double-heaviness

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:05 am

C.J.W. wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Using what you've posted it wont be possible to do what is demoed with out the understanding he explains. It also makes it hard for some to understand the demos because of their present out look. IME most people who are good at usage ie "fighting" can do or do do, a lot of what is shown in unconsciously

The use of li or strength directly comes from being double weighted which is not a bad thing...some cultivate this aspect and make themselves into little bulls or tanks... a contest of strength which if answered with strength will depend on who's stronger....

For arts like taiji, the emphasis is on change, and balance that has yet to be seen in use
in a live environment successfully using taiji.
Kinda sad but in some ways understandably,
different times :-\



What I've outlined so far are just a couple of very VERY rudimentary principles on how to maintain Yin/Yang balance and avoid double-heaviness WHEN YOU MOVE. When interaction with an opponent is involved, things can become much more complex.

By my definitions, even good non-internal fighters still move in double-heavy manners all the time. What allows them to beat other fighters is that they are able to re-position and readjust faster than their opponents, relying on natural reflexes and other attributes associated with god-given genetics and athleticism.

You do not understand "good non-internal fighters." They do not rely on "athleticism." Anyone can physically condition themselves. GSP explains there are 3 layers. Athleticism is only the first one.

Georges St-Pierre says the Tactical layer is "where you make the difference between the champion and the average competitor," not physical conditioning which he explains here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26985&start=15. "Non-internal" tactical fighting skill includes capitalizing on or creating the opponent's double heaviness.

Double heaviness is more than "how to maintain Yin/Yang balance and avoid double-heaviness WHEN YOU MOVE." Tai chi classics say, "Know your opponent." "If the opponent does not move, then I do not move." It is important to know how double heaviness applies to force and an opponent, not only WHEN YOU MOVE.

From Yang Jun video, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27109&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30:
@ 5:47 - When talking about empty-full, we have to understand it has 2 aspects. First factor is the weight aspect. The other more frequently used factor is the force aspect. When the empty-full in force is not differentiated, you will have difficulty convert forces. When you cannot convert force, you lose flexibility. This is called double-heaviness. . . .

@ 9:11 – So when we talk about clarify empty-full state we are not necessarily talking about weight distribution. More often, we are talking about empty-full of force. … It is actually the force’s empty-full not clarified, which is double heaviness. Double heaviness affects our force conversion so we are not flexible. This state we say it’s wrong. Overall, we need to understand in Taiji Quan we focus on force not shape. Force is the focus, don’t just look at body shape.


C.J.W. wrote:A good example would be how boxers are usually taught to punch -- jab, pull back, cross, pull back, back to the guard stance, and repeat. When they encounter resistance, miss a punch, or feel like they are losing balance, they are programmed to simply pull back, regain balance, and start over again.

You do not understand how "boxers are usually taught." Boxers are not taught to "simply pull back and regain balance." Pull counter is taught with balance, structure and alignment by good trainers (see Youtube). Pull counter is only one of many defenses. A variety of defenses should be used to not set any predictable pattern.

Here is a pull counter done in a real fight against a moving opponent (not just in a form). You might need to slow it down to quarter speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJixwf0ouw

C.J.W. wrote:IMA fighters, on the other hand, by always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving, are mobile and stable. When met with resistance, their trained structure should be able to absorb it and at the same time allow them to issue power from whatever position they are in.

Is this "IMA fighter always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9_tsqYgjbs
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:23 am

I'd say regarding combat both ima and ema lead to the sane place in many ways. Doublee weightedness as a phenomenon is not unique to taijiquan.

What's unique is the solution which none of this had addressed.

How do you prevent being double weighted in the beginning taiji movement that comes second in every form? The proper posture is performed with the weight split between the feet. Light on top heavy on bottom, but how?

Sinking.

Sinking is the first most major part of ameliorating double weightedness. Double sinking is not an error.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:47 pm

CMA system such as the XingYi Liu He and Baji emphasizes very much on "hand and foot stop at the same time". In their training, you just don't see, "foot landed but hand is stilling moving".

IMO, without the "true" 6 harmony training, you cannot truly understand the maximum power generation. After a bomb is exploded, your enemy is dead. You don't need to worry about change after that.

XingYi Liu He:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL5wVkq ... e=youtu.be

Baji:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1exzy- ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby everything on Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:27 pm

doesn't it seem like moving a light kettlebell or old fashioned hand held weapon will give you this harmony
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:54 pm

everything wrote:doesn't it seem like moving a light kettlebell or old fashioned hand held weapon will give you this harmony

Agree! Hands and feet "stop at the same time" is a very important training in SC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL4PY38ZNvE
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:58 pm

marvin8 wrote:You do not understand "good non-internal fighters." They do not rely on "athleticism." Anyone can physically condition themselves. GSP explains there are 3 layers. Athleticism is only the first one.

Georges St-Pierre says the Tactical layer is "where you make the difference between the champion and the average competitor," not physical conditioning which he explains here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26985&start=15. "Non-internal" tactical fighting skill includes capitalizing on or creating the opponent's double heaviness.

Double heaviness is more than "how to maintain Yin/Yang balance and avoid double-heaviness WHEN YOU MOVE." Tai chi classics say, "Know your opponent." "If the opponent does not move, then I do not move." It is important to know how double heaviness applies to force and an opponent, not only WHEN YOU MOVE.

From Yang Jun video, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27109&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30:
@ 5:47 - When talking about empty-full, we have to understand it has 2 aspects. First factor is the weight aspect. The other more frequently used factor is the force aspect. When the empty-full in force is not differentiated, you will have difficulty convert forces. When you cannot convert force, you lose flexibility. This is called double-heaviness. . . .

@ 9:11 – So when we talk about clarify empty-full state we are not necessarily talking about weight distribution. More often, we are talking about empty-full of force. … It is actually the force’s empty-full not clarified, which is double heaviness. Double heaviness affects our force conversion so we are not flexible. This state we say it’s wrong. Overall, we need to understand in Taiji Quan we focus on force not shape. Force is the focus, don’t just look at body shape.


C.J.W. wrote:A good example would be how boxers are usually taught to punch -- jab, pull back, cross, pull back, back to the guard stance, and repeat. When they encounter resistance, miss a punch, or feel like they are losing balance, they are programmed to simply pull back, regain balance, and start over again.

You do not understand how "boxers are usually taught." Boxers are not taught to "simply pull back and regain balance." Pull counter is taught with balance, structure and alignment by good trainers (see Youtube). Pull counter is only one of many defenses. A variety of defenses should be used to not set any predictable pattern.

Here is a pull counter done in a real fight against a moving opponent (not just in a form). You might need to slow it down to quarter speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJixwf0ouw

C.J.W. wrote:IMA fighters, on the other hand, by always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving, are mobile and stable. When met with resistance, their trained structure should be able to absorb it and at the same time allow them to issue power from whatever position they are in.

Is this "IMA fighter always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9_tsqYgjbs


Oh my, my....somebody wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ::)

No....I never said that avoiding double-heaviness is ONLY about how YOU move, I said it is about how you move AT THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL, which is what form training is supposed to instill in you. Once you have it down, the next level would be to learn how to maintain it while interacting with a partner in semi-cooperative formats (e.g., push hand), and eventually moving onto free-fighting.

Actually, the boxing clip you posted proves my points exactly. Boxers always hit, retract the punch, and hit again while constantly re-adjusting their balance and re-positioning, looking for another loophole in the opponent's defense where they can land another punch.

Good internal fighters do NOT fight like that, period. (Not the ones I have met in person or know of, anyway.)

If you can't see that, chances are you have yet to meet an IMA guy who can deliver the goods. I'd suggest spending more time researching IMA and meeting people who know their stuff -- and perhaps less time analyzing boxing matches and quoting MMA guys. ;)
Last edited by C.J.W. on Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:35 pm

johnwang wrote:CMA system such as the XingYi Liu He and Baji emphasizes very much on "hand and foot stop at the same time". In their training, you just don't see, "foot landed but hand is stilling moving".

IMO, without the "true" 6 harmony training, you cannot truly understand the maximum power generation. After a bomb is exploded, your enemy is dead. You don't need to worry about change after that.

XingYi Liu He:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL5wVkq ... e=youtu.be

Baji:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1exzy- ... e=youtu.be



Appearance can be......very deceiving. Just because it LOOKS like everything is arriving at the same time, doesn't mean it actually is.

When you crack a bullwhip and use it to hit a target, does every part move and arrive at the same? Nope.

Does it still have a lot of power? You bet. ;)



My understanding of the secret to IMA's power generation is that it is "SEQUENTIAL" -- never arriving at the same time.

If everything arrives at the same time, you are no longer a whip. You turn into a hard stick.

Hitting someone with a hard stick will cause blunt force trauma, which is qualitatively different from hitting with a whip -- the power is sharper and more penetrative.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby everything on Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:doesn't it seem like moving a light kettlebell or old fashioned hand held weapon will give you this harmony

Agree! Hands and feet "stop at the same time" is a very important training in SC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL4PY38ZNvE



It also automatically gives you six direction force.

It's impossible to swing the KB forward without having a balancing force backwards.

And so on.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:46 am

C.J.W. wrote:My understanding of the secret to IMA's power generation is that it is "SEQUENTIAL" -- never arriving at the same time.
If everything arrives at the same time, you are no longer a whip.


“rooted in the feet, developed in the legs, directed by the waist, and manifest in the hands.” Some people interprete this as a sequence, but is in fact a misunderstanding, an idea foremost proposed by Chen stylists, not by Yang stylists. It just tells you how the body parts work together, but the body always work together from start to end of the movement.

If you look at the vid with tha whip, the body still has a direct connection between base and point of the whip that balance the whip strike. Using the body as a whip is too slow. There’s a saying “suddenly appear, suddenly disappear”. The Yang masters have always proposed suddenness, fajin being like an explosion, something that comes from nowhere. Winding and gathering should not be seen. A visible movement, telegraphing, might not bother Chen stylists, but Yang style power generation doesn’t work like that. For gathering or “pulling back the arrow” you can work with an idea similar to a spring or a whip on the inside, but it should not be appearant on the outside. When you release, “releasing the arrow” it’s just releasing, it’s sudden and instantaneous.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:27 am

Bao wrote:Using the body as a whip is too slow.

I have tested this principle almost to the death. After I have developed the "rhino guard", I tried to use my hip movement to pull my arms.

When I move my hip to my

- right, my arms will be pulled to my left.
- left, my arms will be pulled to my right.

No matter how fast that I can move my hip, the delay between my hip to my arms is still noticeable. This just make me to wonder. Whoever had invented "Using the body a whip", did that person ever fight in his life time?
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:32 am

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Using the body as a whip is too slow.

I have tested this principle almost to the death. After I have developed the "rhino guard", I tried to use my hip movement to pull my arms. When I move my hip to my right/left , my arms will be pulled to my left/right. No matter how fast that I can move my hip, the delay between my hip to my arms is still noticeable. This just make me wonder. Whoever had invented "Using the body a whip", did that person ever fight in his life time?



Exactly!

No, I don't believe anyone who is an advocate for this kind of body use knows anything about "fighting".
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:38 am

Bao wrote:No, I don't believe anyone who is an advocate for this kind of body use knows anything about "fighting".

Some teachers might develop some theory during their old age. They might not have enough time to test it. They taught to their students and passed down. This kind of theory can confuse people big time.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 am

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Using the body as a whip is too slow.

I have tested this principle almost to the death. After I have developed the "rhino guard", I tried to use my hip movement to pull my arms. When I move my hip to my right/left , my arms will be pulled to my left/right. No matter how fast that I can move my hip, the delay between my hip to my arms is still noticeable. This just make me wonder. Whoever had invented "Using the body a whip", did that person ever fight in his life time?



Exactly!

No, I don't believe anyone who is an advocate for this kind of body use knows anything about "fighting".


Yep, you are probably right

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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:30 am

Using a method as a set-up or a trap is different from relying on telegraphing strikes as a main attacking weapon.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:39 am

C.J.W. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You do not understand "good non-internal fighters." They do not rely on "athleticism." Anyone can physically condition themselves. GSP explains there are 3 layers. Athleticism is only the first one.

Georges St-Pierre says the Tactical layer is "where you make the difference between the champion and the average competitor," not physical conditioning which he explains here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26985&start=15. "Non-internal" tactical fighting skill includes capitalizing on or creating the opponent's double heaviness.

Double heaviness is more than "how to maintain Yin/Yang balance and avoid double-heaviness WHEN YOU MOVE." Tai chi classics say, "Know your opponent." "If the opponent does not move, then I do not move." It is important to know how double heaviness applies to force and an opponent, not only WHEN YOU MOVE.

From Yang Jun video, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27109&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30:
@ 5:47 - When talking about empty-full, we have to understand it has 2 aspects. First factor is the weight aspect. The other more frequently used factor is the force aspect. When the empty-full in force is not differentiated, you will have difficulty convert forces. When you cannot convert force, you lose flexibility. This is called double-heaviness. . . .

@ 9:11 – So when we talk about clarify empty-full state we are not necessarily talking about weight distribution. More often, we are talking about empty-full of force. … It is actually the force’s empty-full not clarified, which is double heaviness. Double heaviness affects our force conversion so we are not flexible. This state we say it’s wrong. Overall, we need to understand in Taiji Quan we focus on force not shape. Force is the focus, don’t just look at body shape.


C.J.W. wrote:A good example would be how boxers are usually taught to punch -- jab, pull back, cross, pull back, back to the guard stance, and repeat. When they encounter resistance, miss a punch, or feel like they are losing balance, they are programmed to simply pull back, regain balance, and start over again.

You do not understand how "boxers are usually taught." Boxers are not taught to "simply pull back and regain balance." Pull counter is taught with balance, structure and alignment by good trainers (see Youtube). Pull counter is only one of many defenses. A variety of defenses should be used to not set any predictable pattern.

Here is a pull counter done in a real fight against a moving opponent (not just in a form). You might need to slow it down to quarter speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJixwf0ouw

C.J.W. wrote:IMA fighters, on the other hand, by always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving, are mobile and stable. When met with resistance, their trained structure should be able to absorb it and at the same time allow them to issue power from whatever position they are in.

Is this "IMA fighter always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9_tsqYgjbs


Oh my, my....somebody wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ::)

... Actually, the boxing clip you posted proves my points exactly. Boxers always hit, retract the punch, and hit again while constantly re-adjusting their balance and re-positioning, looking for another loophole in the opponent's defense where they can land another punch.

Good internal fighters do NOT fight like that, period. (Not the ones I have met in person or know of, anyway.)

Oh no, no ... just discussing your misinformed statements on how "good non-internal fighters" train and "what allows them to beat other fighters" with supporting information. A good discussion starts with good, accurate information.

Boxers do not "always hit, retract the punch." That was one fight. Boxers also punch and leave it out to pull guards down, trap, occupy the centerline, head control, etc. MMA uses more of these with more open rules. Your misstatement continues to show a lack knowledge of what boxers actually do—leading to your incorrect IMA vs EMA comparisons and conclusions.

Why not post an IMA fight video that shows the IMA movement you have been talking about?
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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