Avoiding double-heaviness

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:18 am

Bao wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:My understanding of the secret to IMA's power generation is that it is "SEQUENTIAL" -- never arriving at the same time.
If everything arrives at the same time, you are no longer a whip.


“rooted in the feet, developed in the legs, directed by the waist, and manifest in the hands.” Some people interprete this as a sequence, but is in fact a misunderstanding, an idea foremost proposed by Chen stylists, not by Yang stylists. It just tells you how the body parts work together, but the body always work together from start to end of the movement.

If you look at the vid with tha whip, the body still has a direct connection between base and point of the whip that balance the whip strike. Using the body as a whip is too slow. There’s a saying “suddenly appear, suddenly disappear”. The Yang masters have always proposed suddenness, fajin being like an explosion, something that comes from nowhere. Winding and gathering should not be seen. A visible movement, telegraphing, might not bother Chen stylists, but Yang style power generation doesn’t work like that. For gathering or “pulling back the arrow” you can work with an idea similar to a spring or a whip on the inside, but it should not be appearant on the outside. When you release, “releasing the arrow” it’s just releasing, it’s sudden and instantaneous.


There are actually several dissertations on the biomechanics of Taiji and whole-body power in CIMA published by sports scientists in Taiwan that prove fajin is indeed sequential beginning from the feet all the way up to the hands, or moving in a "kinetic chain," as they call it. So there's really no point in debating who's right here.

Using the body as a whip is not slow at all; on the contrary, when done right, it is extremely fast. Tongbei and Pigua are two arts that overtly make use of the long, extended, sequential "whipping" body method, and also known for having lightening fast strikes and footwork.



Last edited by C.J.W. on Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:42 am

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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:34 am

marvin8 wrote:Oh no, no ... just discussing your misinformed statements on how "good non-internal fighters" train and "what allows them to beat other fighters" with supporting information. A good discussion starts with good, accurate information.

Boxers do not "always hit, retract the punch." That was one fight. Boxers also punch and leave it out to pull guards down, trap, occupy the centerline, head control, etc. MMA uses more of these with more open rules. Your misstatement continues to show a lack knowledge of what boxers actually do—leading to your incorrect IMA vs EMA comparisons and conclusions.


"Always" doesn't mean 100%. Of course there are boxers out there who will utilize different techniques and strategies, but they are by no means representative of what most boxers do in most cases to defeat an opponent.

Out of the 50 knockouts in the clip, how many were achieved using the techniques you described? Or were most of them done via the "hit, retract, and hit again" approach I've stated?



Also, I believe a style's fundamental fighting strategy is defined by how the basics are taught and drilled. I sure see a lot of hitting, retracting, dodging, and re-positioning.


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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 am

C.J.W. wrote:There are actually several dissertations on the biomechanics of Taiji and whole-body power in CIMA published by sports scientists in Taiwan that prove fajin is indeed sequential beginning from the feet all the way up to the hands, or moving in a "kinetic chain," as they call it. So there's really no point in debating who's right here.


Several dissertions? Then you can probably give me a couple of sources? ;)

There are several different things called Fajin, so all of those dissertions you have read, do they all define fajin the same way? .... :P

But Li Yaxuan, Cheng Manching, William Chen are all wrong and you know the truth because you say that you have read several dissertions... ok, I get it...

Using the body as a whip is not slow at all; on the contrary, when done right, it is extremely fast.


I am not arguing that there can be a wave movement. How you coordinate the wind up and release can be different depending on what “quality” of power you want to achieve. You can “release” upon connection with your target or before, but you still need to have a solid base and know where your centerline is to create balance and support.
If I would argue about anything it would be against the idea that only one method is “true Tai Chi.”

Tongbei and Pigua are two art that overtly make use of the long, extended, sequential "whipping" body method, and also known for having lightening fast strikes and footwork.


I don’t see any lightening fast strike or footwork. But I can see the direct connection between hand and foot, especially clear when he stops the movement of the body. His hand and foot stops at the same time.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:22 am

C.J.W. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Oh no, no ... just discussing your misinformed statements on how "good non-internal fighters" train and "what allows them to beat other fighters" with supporting information. A good discussion starts with good, accurate information.

Boxers do not "always hit, retract the punch." That was one fight. Boxers also punch and leave it out to pull guards down, trap, occupy the centerline, head control, etc. MMA uses more of these with more open rules. Your misstatement continues to show a lack knowledge of what boxers actually do—leading to your incorrect IMA vs EMA comparisons and conclusions.


"Always" doesn't mean 100%. Of course there are boxers out there who will utilize different techniques and strategies, but they are by no means representative of what most boxers do in most cases to defeat an opponent.

Out of the 50 knockouts in the clip, how many were achieved using the techniques you described? Or were most of them done via the "hit, retract, and hit again" approach I've stated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o45X7AEy7Gc&t=132s

Also, I believe a style's fundamental fighting strategy is defined by how the basics are taught and drilled. I sure see a lot of hitting, retracting, dodging, and re-positioning.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWmaxdN4B90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX1TNX1lrCU

Highlights like that mean nothing, as they don't show the tactical strategy leading up to the finish—which is where the art is. Also, not everyone has a high level of tactical skill. Some may play a weight bully and only use their Physical skill. But, that does not represent the art of boxing.

Punch, catch, block, parry, slip, roll and footwork are offensive and defensive techniques not a fundamental fighting strategy. This is Georges St-Pierre's second layer: Techniques, not Tactical. Georges did not invent the concept, but may have named his own pyramid layers.

marvin8 wrote:Georges St-Pierre says the Tactical layer is "where you make the difference between the champion and the average competitor," not physical conditioning which he explains here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26985&start=15. "Non-internal" tactical fighting skill includes capitalizing on or creating the opponent's double heaviness.


I am trying to understand what an IMA fight is to you. I am not understanding. Are you imagining one in your head? If so, what would an IMA fight look like?

What do you see this Chen Village fighter doing? What is the difference?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZhdSuuEZ0

Edit:
C.J.W. wrote:IMA fighters, on the other hand, by always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving, are mobile and stable. When met with resistance, their trained structure should be able to absorb it and at the same time allow them to issue power from whatever position they are in. . . .

Oh my, my....somebody wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ::)

Actually, the boxing clip you posted proves my points exactly. Boxers always hit, retract the punch, and hit again while constantly re-adjusting their balance and re-positioning, looking for another loophole in the opponent's defense where they can land another punch.

Good internal fighters do NOT fight like that, period. (Not the ones I have met in person or know of, anyway.)

In the above video, do you think Wang Yan, head coach of the Chenjiagou Taijiquan School is a "good internal fighter?" Is he "always staying Yin/Yang balanced when moving?"

Do you see him "hit, retract the punch, and hit again."
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:23 am

I think someone was asking for an example from ima fighting.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:12 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Oh my, my....somebody wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ::)

Actually, the boxing clip you posted proves my points exactly. Boxers always hit, retract the punch, and hit again while constantly re-adjusting their balance and re-positioning, looking for another loophole in the opponent's defense where they can land another punch.

Good internal fighters do NOT fight like that, period. (Not the ones I have met in person or know of, anyway.)

Out of the 50 knockouts in the clip, how many were achieved using the techniques you described? Or were most of them done via the "hit, retract, and hit again" approach I've stated?

In most street fights I have seen, someone "hits, retracts the punch, and hits again." So, one needs to be used to at least defending against that, just as a boxer does in the ring. That is why I am confused when you say boxers "hit, retract the punch, and hit again," as if it doesn't happen in a real fight. Of course, MMA is used to defending in all ranges, including grappling.

Here is a street fight from Taiwan, where someone "hits, retracts the punch, and hits again."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMy6-vb_EzA
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:04 pm

Steve James wrote:I think someone was asking for an example from ima fighting.

Here is a Bagua fight. Let's see if we can find any of those good IMA quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUr_0_o ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:14 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I think someone was asking for an example from ima fighting.

Can someone put up an IMA fighting clip?


Yes, but you won't like it.

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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:23 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Yes, but you won't like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iETc7UhhupE

But that's only "demo" clip and not fighting clip.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm

I told you that you wouldn't like it. :D

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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:12 pm

Bao wrote:Several dissertions? Then you can probably give me a couple of sources? ;)

There are several different things called Fajin, so all of those dissertions you have read, do they all define fajin the same way? .... :P

But Li Yaxuan, Cheng Manching, William Chen are all wrong and you know the truth because you say that you have read several dissertions... ok, I get it...


I don’t see any lightening fast strike or footwork. But I can see the direct connection between hand and foot, especially clear when he stops the movement of the body. His hand and foot stops at the same time.


Unless you can read Chinese, those dissertations probably wouldn't do you any good. But I can tell you that the experiments were carried out at Taiwan Sports University and done by people who actually practice XY/BG/TJ as well as other TCMA and using subjects with many years of experience in the arts.

And I am confused. Who is saying that all those Taiji masters are wrong? ???

If the Taiji classics say --in your own words --that fajin is supposed to be “rooted in the feet, developed in the legs, directed by the waist, and manifest in the hands," then scientific findings showing that energy transfer in fajin is sequential actually proves that the classics are indeed accurate, and that those old-time masters were doing it right all along -- unless there's other evidence suggesting that they deviated from the classics.

Just because it looks like -- or feels like -- the hand and foot arrive or stop at the same time, doesn't mean they actually are.

There exists a series of very short transient delays as the energy travels from one major joint to the next with the joints extending sequentially. The delays and sequential movements are so small that even people performing fajin themselves may not be aware of the process, but it is readily observed and quantified by scientists who study the process using modern machines.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:51 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I think someone was asking for an example from ima fighting.

Here is a Bagua fight. Let's see if we can find any of those good IMA quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUr_0_o ... e=youtu.be


If you say it's a bagua fight, ok; but, if you hadn't said it, I would never have guessed. Afa whether it's a god example of "internal" fighting, everyone's mileage may vary.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:54 pm

C.J.W. wrote:fajin is sequential ...

I prefer the following arguments (quoted from someone's comments):

"I teach that you hold the chamber until the last possible second, then fire the hand when the moving foot hits the ground. I use the visual imagery that there is a button on the floor and when you step on it, your hands fire."

"In forms we teach that it is very important for the hand and foot to stop at the same time for balance, power, elegance. In sparring that is just not a reality."
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:35 pm

Well, in terms of tcc theory as presented in the "Classics," --in Li I Yu, specifically-- that has often been translated as "when one part moves, everything moves" and, by extension, everything should stop at the same time. The problem is that Li is talking specifically about form and push hands.

Otoh, there's the saying "if the opponent does not move, I don't; if he does, I move first." There can be many ways to interpret that statement, but both statements suggests that there needs to be unity of action. I happen to agree with those who argue that the fault of double-weighting isn't about the distribution of one's physical weight, but also about the unification of intent and spirit.

Yeah, when it comes to action, there should be a sincere commitment to that act. Certainly, there's the warning that "when attacking left, beware the right," etc. But, that's completely different from being committed. Is it possible to over-commit? Of course, that's why much of tcc theory is based on Suntzi. Knowing when to commit, and when not is a skill.
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