Avoiding double-heaviness

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:07 am

While you kick and stand on one leg, are you "single heaviness" right at that moment?


I know that you can be double weighted while standing on one leg. In fact, it can be easier to knock someone over or throw him while he's on one leg. It can just depend on how quickly he can get to the other leg. :)
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:05 pm

Steve James wrote:I know that you can be double weighted while standing on one leg.

Now you have really confused me. Is this double weighted?

Image
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:46 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I know that you can be double weighted while standing on one leg.

Now you have really confused me. Is this double weighted?

Image


Depends, what happens when you pull on his hand?
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm

C.J.W. wrote:why do Zimen and Mantis teach people to land feet fist and hands later, but Baji doesn't?

The following comment from someone else may answer your question perfectly.

"In general, many beginners are taught foot first and establish a good base and then the punch follows. As you become better, you can apply many of those principles and hit with a whole body punch while in motion. It's called "falling step."
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I know that you can be double weighted while standing on one leg.

Now you have really confused me. Is this double weighted?

Image


Depends, what happens when you pull on his hand?

What happens when you pull on his leg? By using your logic, all kicks will have the same issue.

Image
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:40 pm

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:why do Zimen and Mantis teach people to land feet fist and hands later, but Baji doesn't?

The following comment from someone else may answer your question perfectly.

"In general, many beginners are taught foot first and establish a good base and then the punch follows. As you become better, you can apply many of those principles and hit with a whole body punch while in motion. It's called "falling step."


We use some of the same ideas expressed in whats called the drop step..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnG7PWGrx20&t=2s
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:02 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I know that you can be double weighted while standing on one leg.

Now you have really confused me. Is this double weighted?

Image
oragami_itto wrote:Depends, what happens when you pull on his hand?

What happens when you pull on his leg? By using your logic, all kicks will have the same issue.

Image


Well I wasn't exactly using logic, just asking a question. If you pull on his hand (or leg) and he falls over or is immobilized somehow, then he's double weighted. If he can adapt and root without wavering, then he isn't, IMHO.

The external form is secondary to the internal forces. There's only so much you can determine from a still photograph.

Cheng Man Ching talked about Yang Cheng Fu telling him he (YCF) wasn't a meathook so CMC shouldn't hang his meat on him. Same basic idea, if the strike is committing the mass then you're essentially giving it to the partner to manipulate. Most directly by getting out of the way. If missing your strike causes you to stumble, you're double weighted.

For example, your throw and go(?) exercise you posted where you throw down the opponent and continue past him. The way you have to hop and stumble to regain normal balance and stride shows you are double-weighted during and after the throw.

It's clearly no problem within the context of your art and technique, but it's not what a serious tjq hobbyist like myself is trying to train. ;)
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:53 pm

Aw shucks, a guy goes up on one leg, you try to knock it out from under him. I've seen fights won solely with sweeps. Otoh, there are guys who are hard to put down even when on one leg.

Thinking about it in terms of "double weighting" is useless to me. It has nothing to do with being on one or two legs. Might as well ask about the weightedness of someone doing a flying side kick. It only matters whether he hits you in the head.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:13 pm

If you're in a position to take either of those legs out from under the guy then they've made an egregious tactical error to begin with.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:29 pm

Steve James wrote:Thinking about it in terms of "double weighting" is useless to me.

I feel the same way too. Having spent most of my life on the wrestling mat, the only situation that's close to the "double weighting" is to

- push on my opponent's left shoulder back and pull his right leg forward. This way he cannot spin either to his right or to his left.
- push my opponent's body to my right and sweep his leg to my left.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:07 pm

The point of the theory is to inform one's own taiji practice. The lack of it is a big part of the specific skills taiji is trying to cultivate. It doesn't make sense to examine every single discipline for it if it isn't already a part of the discipline's foundation. Don't judge a fish by how well it climbs trees
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:15 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:You used the word "land" this time, I quoted you earlier using the word "stop". Those are two different words.

"Foot land" and "foot stop" mean the same to me. Your foot is not moving but your leg may still move. It's like there is a button on the floor and when you step on it, your hands fire.

C.J.W. wrote:This also brings us to another question, why do Zimen and Mantis teach people to land feet fist and hands later, but Baji doesn't? I believe it has a lot to do with each style's unique fighting strategy and techniques.

This is why Zimen, mantis, long fist don't have Fajin, but Baji, XingYi Lie He, Chen Taiji have. But Chen Taiji does not follow 6 harmony 100%.

Again, I like the description of, "There is a button on the floor and when you step on it, your hands fire."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vegddzn ... e=youtu.be

This guy is punching as if "there is a button on the floor and when you step on it, your hands fire:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GI6Epznm_s

In both videos (baji and boxing), there is no weight shift or rotation after the foot lands. Are you saying this type of punch generates more power than the kinetic chain punch, where foot lands before hand? Is this similar to how you would throw combination punches, in a fight? (Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, etc., uses both types of power generation depending on the situation.)

Here is the kinetic chain punch. Henderson jab feints to head, jabs to body—which allows him to generate much more power out of hip rotation for his right:
Image

Kinetic chain in baseball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGDlwhITEp8
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:57 am

marvin8 wrote:In both videos (baji and boxing), there is no weight shift or rotation after the foot lands. Are you saying this type of punch generates more power than the kinetic chain punch, where foot lands before hand? Is this similar to how you would throw combination punches, in a fight? (Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, etc., uses both types of power generation depending on the situation.)

I believe that "punch when you foot land" only work for straight punch such as jab and cross. Your clip shows a hook punch. As far as I know, there is no MA style that tries to coordinate hook punch with the foot landing. The reason is simple. The maximum power of a hook punch is in the middle of the curve and not at the end of a curve. May be this is why both the XingYi and Baji system don't have hook punch.

For 1, 2, 3 combination punches, the preying mantis will coordinate the hand and foot on the 3rd punch. The 1st and 2nd punch mainly used to set up the 3rd punch.

In my personal experience, I can general more power on my striking dummy (from the sound) with my straight punch when my punch and foot land at the same time than when I land my foot first and then punch after that. The reason is also simple. I can take advantage on my body weight (sinking force) and forward momentum.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:55 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In both videos (baji and boxing), there is no weight shift or rotation after the foot lands. Are you saying this type of punch generates more power than the kinetic chain punch, where foot lands before hand? Is this similar to how you would throw combination punches, in a fight? (Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, etc., uses both types of power generation depending on the situation.)

I believe that "punch when you foot land" only work for straight punch such as jab and cross. Your clip shows a hook punch. As far as I know, there is no MA style that tries to coordinate hook punch with the foot landing. The reason is simple. The maximum power of a hook punch is in the middle of the curve and not at the end of a curve. May be this is why both the XingYi and Baji system don't have hook punch.

There is no hook punch in any of the clips. So, let's put the hook punch aside for the moment.

For clarity, let's talk about "punch and foot land at the same time" with the straight right in the clips we both posted. Rather than something that hasn't been posted.

johnwang wrote:For 1, 2, 3 combination punches, the preying mantis will coordinate the hand and foot on the 3rd punch. The 1st and 2nd punch mainly used to set up the 3rd punch.

In my personal experience, I can general more power on my striking dummy (from the sound) with my straight punch when my punch and foot land at the same time than when I land my foot first and then punch after that. The reason is also simple. I can take advantage on my body weight (sinking force) and forward momentum.

In all three posted clips there is a straight right. The baji and heavy bag "punch and foot land at the same time."
johnwang wrote:Again, I like the description of, "There is a button on the floor and when you step on it, your hands fire."
marvin8 wrote:This guy is punching as if "there is a button on the floor and when you step on it, your hands fire:"
marvin8 wrote:In both videos (baji and boxing), there is no weight shift or rotation after the foot lands. Are you saying this type of punch generates more power than the kinetic chain punch, where foot lands before hand? Is this similar to how you would throw combination punches, in a fight? (Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, etc., uses both types of power generation depending on the situation.)


The third clip of the fight shows the straight right using the kinetic chain with "foot first and then punch after that," hip, shoulder and body rotation and forward momentum. The baseball video shows the sequences in the kinetic chain.

Do you disagree with the baseball video and believe that if "hand and foot land at the same time," the throw will be faster than 97 mph? If yes, why?

Is the third fight clip straight right with hip, shoulder and body rotation and forward momentum weaker than your baji video straight right? If yes, why?
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:05 pm

marvin8 wrote:Do you disagree with the baseball video and believe that if "hand and foot land at the same time," the throw will be faster than 97 mph? If yes, why?

Is the third fight clip straight right with hip, shoulder and body rotation and forward momentum weaker than your baji video straight right? If yes, why?

IMO, to throw a baseball ball is different from to generate the maximum power. When you throw a baseball, your body rotation is linear speed and not exponential speed as slow-fast.

It may be easier to discuss with another example. In the following clip, I can simplify my move into 2 steps. I try to coordinate my

1. right foot with my left arm downward parry and right arm comb hair.
2. left foot with my left arm warp and right arm head lock.

My left foot land and my right forearm strike on my opponent's head at the same time. If I land my foot first and strike later, I'll lose that "dropping force" with my body weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfR-yJL ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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