Empty Force

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Empty Force

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:57 pm

I don't know why you want a tai chi guy to get in a boxing ring
As for MMA there are plenty going down that road but they are no longer tai chi
This is because to succeed at MMA you must go the full time training root and buy into chemical enhancement
Wu called Chen red fist and stated it was not tai chi
He may have thought it had strayed from its original path
Fukien white crane is like tai chi hop gar is not
The physical structure the fighting tactics the internal dynamics all differ
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:05 pm

In the past entering such contest and winning was the definitive way of proving and demoing a style.

In today's time taiji has retreated and created its own events with the advent of competitive push hand.

This has changed the dynamic and outlook so much that I don't think anyone really knows how taiji was used in the past.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:29 pm

windwalker wrote:In the past entering such contest and winning was the definitive way of proving and demoing a style.

In today's time taiji has retreated and created its own events with the advent of competitive push hand.

This has changed the dynamic and outlook so much that I don't think anyone really knows how taiji was used in the past.

Yes it is a little difficult to follow you, on one hand you seem a little frustrated about not seeing to much Taiji in the boxing ring on the other hand you defend teachers who just by a wave of his hand make his students stumble and falling all over the place....What is it you want to say, you want to see more Kong Jin skilled people in the ring ? are you on a mission to produce Kong Jin or just regular Taiji students to enter the ring ?
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:53 pm

Trick wrote:[

Yes it is a little difficult to follow you, on one hand you seem a little frustrated about not seeing to much Taiji in the boxing ring on the other hand you defend teachers who just by a wave of his hand make his students stumble and falling all over the place....What is it you want to say, you want to see more Kong Jin skilled people in the ring ? are you on a mission to produce Kong Jin or just regular Taiji students to enter the ring ?


Seems like you keep trying to reframe what I say into something else good attempt but really a no go ;) .

nothing more to say on this,,kong jin, is part of a much larger process, as is pen jin, and others..
Whether touched or not "the process" by which it works is the same....

Let any CMA to get into the ring using it as trained, in the same way that someone who boxed would tend to look like, and be able to use
his methods in a competitive event even if it was not a boxing event.

hasn't happened, according to history it seems it was pretty common in the old days if the old stories are to be believed. Just hasn't happened in modern times, could be wrong...Using what was trained was /is something that is looked at back then as now...chen guys vs muy thai,,,was it chen style?

Reading your last post

"I think most of these traditional MA’s where/are civil MA’s to work as an “back up“ against unpolished ruffians and hooligans"

another words against people that dont really know what they'er doing unless your equating them to professional trained ring fighters,,are you ?
you words not mine.

Those in todays competitive events dont do to well against trained solders either but do in the ring, and for the most would do well in the streets.

They could be trained as soldires but a lot of other things would have to be detrained first.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou-DUw0etc8
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:46 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:[

Yes it is a little difficult to follow you, on one hand you seem a little frustrated about not seeing to much Taiji in the boxing ring on the other hand you defend teachers who just by a wave of his hand make his students stumble and falling all over the place....What is it you want to say, you want to see more Kong Jin skilled people in the ring ? are you on a mission to produce Kong Jin or just regular Taiji students to enter the ring ?


Seems like you keep trying to reframe what I say into something else good attempt but really a no go ;) .
according to history it seems it was pretty common in the old days if the old stories are to be believed. Just hasn't happened in modern times, could be wrong...Using what was trained was /is something that is looked at back then as now...chen guys vs muy thai,,,was it chen style?



Those in todays competitive events dont do to well against trained solders either but do in the ring, and for the most would do well in the streets.

No I do not try to reframe yours thought here in this post. But since you are the only one(?) on this forum that have experience of the “real” EF and your posting of diagrams as proof of the force does not get us hooked, wouldn’t you have another card in your sleeve to pull out by now?.......About the correctness of historical challenges and fight tournaments in China, what do we really know about the skill levels of the combatants? I remember seeing an documentary of an traveling amusement park group, there was this retired boxer in the group that let all comers try to take him out in a boxing fight, mostly drunk young men who tried..... When speaking of soldiers, my firs employer had in his younger days been in the French foreign legion, he said in the legion they did practice Savate, but as I came to understand it was not his punches and kicks one should worry too much about if he had to go into a fighting mood
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Re: Empty Force

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:22 am

OK WW, perhaps I should have been clearer. Zhao never tried to do anything without contact with me, which is why I referred to the kongjin approach (what you have referred to as the “larger approach”), meaning the training method used, but the same principles applied to PH with contact (as you have stated that they are the same principles/mechanics that are being used). If you have a different term for your training practice when used with contact vs. without contact, then let me know.

Perhaps Zhao was in teacher mode, but at the time I took it as something more like since I was expressing disagreement with him, then I was asking for it and he would show me (with the intent of sending me flying).

I am unfamiliar with the “pengjin approach” terminology, but there is more to it than just maintaining proper inflation of the “ball” – there is, perhaps more important, the differentiation of yin on one side of the point of contact, and yang on the other side. If I was merly maintaining pengjin without the yin/yang differentiation, then Zhao would probably have sent me across the room and I would probably not have been able to strike him. Perhaps Zhao mistakenly assumed that my statements were advocating what he would consider to be a pengjin approach?

In my approach, I do not care whether the contact is light or heavy, but it is the other person’s responsibility, if they desire, to change the pressure level, rather than telling their opponent that they should be lighter. I just use whatever the situation dictates, I do not have an attachment to heavy contact/pressure, nor do I have an aversion to it (nor for or against having light contact/pressure).
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Re: Empty Force

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:24 am

The whole reasoning behind tai chi is to yield to force and utilise that force
Peng Jin should only be momentary,pre longed Peng gin should be avoided
In most cases where people are being bounced away it is because they maintain Peng Jin for the teacher to exploit.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:59 am

Maybe pengjin is not the right word for what Laodan is describing but I can relate to what he’s saying since I have found myself in similar push hand situations. Maybe It’s something as - “don’t put power in the form let it naturally arise from the form”
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Re: Empty Force

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:08 pm

Windy you do realise that the marine corps is a major sponsor of the UFC
Trick it is not the teachers Peng Jin I question it is the student holding Peng Jin for the teacher to push
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Empty Force

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:30 pm

I might have used EF on someone once before. During the 1979 SC tournament in Columbus, Ohio. I grabbed a guy's SC jacket and ran in circle. When he resisted my pulling, I let go my grip. His body flew back 10 feet in the air. Since I didn't use any pushing force, it must be the EF.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Empty Force

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:12 pm

Is EF only the Taiji thing? Are there any XingYi or Bagua teachers ever talk about it?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:10 pm

johnwang wrote:I might have used EF on someone once before. During the 1979 SC tournament in Columbus, Ohio. I grabbed a guy's SC jacket and ran in circle. When he resisted my pulling, I let go my grip. His body flew back 10 feet in the air. Since I didn't use any pushing force, it must be the EF.

Centrifugal ? But yes that might have something to do with EF ?
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:13 pm

johnwang wrote:Is EF only the Taiji thing? Are there any XingYi or Bagua teachers ever talk about it?

The poster “Appledog” mentioned somewhere here about a Xingyiquan teacher in the US that say XYQ is all about EF
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Re: Empty Force

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:29 pm

windwalker wrote:
LaoDan wrote:WW,

I am finding you a bit difficult to follow. First, someone who understands scientific principles should be able to understand what you practice. But I do understand science." However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand" . So did he, he couldn't understand it because he didnt know it

If you think that this was an appropriate response to what I wrote, then it appears that you do not understand the scientific method. Perhaps your Ph.D. physicist friends could explain the difference between principles from physics that are established or accepted (e.g., wave dynamics), untested speculations based on those principles (e.g., wave dynamics as an explanation for kongjin), and actual evidence (experimental testing) for those principles being valid for the hypothesized situation. Most on this forum (myself included) appear to be unsatisfied with untested speculations. Whatever type of physicists your friends are (theoretical, experimental, applied), they should be able to explain the testing of theories (i.e., the scientific method) to you, and prevent you from making mistakes like this in the future. If you merely present untested speculations to us, then there is no reason for us to have to understand the physics that they are based on!
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:47 pm

LaoDan wrote:
If you think that this was an appropriate response to what I wrote, then it appears that you do not understand the scientific method. Perhaps your Ph.D. physicist friends could explain the difference between principles from physics that are established or accepted (e.g., wave dynamics), untested speculations based on those principles (e.g., wave dynamics as an explanation for kongjin), and actual evidence (experimental testing) for those principles being valid for the hypothesized situation. Most on this forum (myself included) appear to be unsatisfied with untested speculations. Whatever type of physicists your friends are (theoretical, experimental, applied), they should be able to explain the testing of theories (i.e., the scientific method) to you, and prevent you from making mistakes like this in the future. If you merely present untested speculations to us, then there is no reason for us to have to understand the physics that they are based on!


I think you may need to re read what I posted from https://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

For quite a few years, I have been reading and re-reading Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises,1 written by my first T’ai-Chi teacher, Cheng Man-ch’ing (1900–1975). I consider most of this book to be very clear and filled with valuable information. However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand.


your using "us" are you representing others or only your self.

When you can do some of what you question regarding taiji. it might help you to understand what others write about.
I think like Mr Chuckrow, you might need to spend some time thinking on what you dont understand or feel you know...
What ever method works for you is cool as long as you can do it and makes sense to you...wouldn't worry about it to much.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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