Empty Force Challenge

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:03 am

windwalker wrote:
Steve James wrote:Here's the thing. If you can't do something, you can't say you understand it; and, if you don't understand it, you can't explain it. The problem with this debate is that few of the people who argue for the existence of "empty force" (whatever they mean by it) say that they actually possess it. If they did, they'd collect John's $10K reward. It'd be the same as if I said I could do one finger push ups, and someone called me on it. But, we only discuss whether someone else (on video or in the past) can or has demonstrated empty force.

Sure, I'll bet almost everyone wh's been around long enough has seen or felt extraordinary things. My point has nothing to do with whether or not anyone's experience is legit. I'm just saying that only those who are willing to demonstrate should be arguing. Otherwise, the effort is wasted.


You didn't mention the redefining that often goes on by those seeking to discredit a practice that they really dont know much if anything about and are
unwilling to even address the theory by which it could, should, would work by
...

The part I often find odd is that they selectively acknowledge the parts of it that they feel they use and understand .

Qi for example that most would say they know, understand and can use...As of yet unproven in the scientific community
Yet it's accepted within a certain context, which this aspect for them is not included in, making it not real....or not understandable

That depends on something as of yet un proven. "qi" for it to work. :-\

That is until the experience becomes common enough that it can be "safely" discussed with out the rankor that always seems
to follow these types of discussions.
Aiki, being a good example of something that seems to be acknowledged safe to talk about.

The burden is on "the people who argue for the existence of 'empty force' (whatever they mean by it)" whom are claiming the $10,000 to "know, understand and use" the theory and prove it.

Others do not need to "know much if anything about," "address the theory by which it could, should, would work," "use and understand," "discuss" or disprove it.

Excerpt from "Protocol to Test 'Subtle Fajin'," https://m.facebook.com/groups/419921708 ... 9781260416:
Stuart Shaw on July 16, 2012 wrote:Background

... The claimants of such ability insist that the "how" is beyond the ability of science to measure or prove one way or the other. They also insist that the only way to "prove it" is for you to visit one of these claimants and feel it for yourself.

However, such subjective evidence is unreliable because of the inherent fallibility of human psychology (meaning people who want to believe will react in a way to support their belief). Claimants will also point to the various demonstration video clips on Youtube as some sort of proof. These however are also discounted as verifiable evidence because:

a) They are all done with complicit and compliant subjects (usually their students), and these subjects are usually trained to stand in certain way and touch the demonstrator in a certain way, and hold their body in certain way that facilitates "the effect",

b) They are all done in a non-controlled environment.

Since this Subtle Fajin ability is said to endow superior combat advantage (some say it yields a "super human" ability), the main conventional way to prove such skill is in a bout of full contact combat (albeit with rules and protection equipment to prevent serious injury). However claimants have thus far been either unable or unwilling to acquiesce to this challenge (which in itself is revealing).

An indication of this is that, to date, there is not one video on Youtube to be found that shows Subtle Fajin used in any environment where the opponent is genuinely non-compliant and competing to their full extent.

As a secondary avenue of validation, it has been proposed that a scientific protocol can be developed that can effectively measure and validate Subtle Fajin without the risks involved in full contact combat.

It is upon this background and considerations that this protocol has been developed.

Purpose

In terms of its purpose, firstly it has to be clearly stated that this is not intended to debunk or discredit any person or tradition. Its purpose is to provide a format to create a foundation of scientific inquiry into this mysterious martial arts technique. Very specifically, this first protocol is about discovering a resolution to this specific question:

"Can Subtle Fajin be performed in a controlled scientific environment using non-compliant, non-complicit test subjects?"

The Benefits of This Research

• We would sort the wheat from the chaff. There are literally 100s of clips on Youtube of folks doing their bouncey-bounce subtle fajin with all their groupies going "Oooo the real deal!!" ... and they are getting away with it because nobody is holding them accountable. They are all using the same excuses why they can't or don't have to prove it in a credible way. Therefore those that may possibly be "real" are getting drowned out in the white noise of all the fakers.

• We would point Taijiquan back on the road of being a "supreme ultimate" martial arts. Currently it is not ... it is a world-wide joke. Predominantly old men slapping each other on the ass pep-talking each other into believing they are "special". If Taijiquan was even a fraction of the "ultimate" fighting art that it is heralded to be, why is there not even a single Taiji fighter making it in the MMA circuit?

• We would create a baseline of credible data of what does work, why it works and which training methods make it work. If we knew which practitioners were the "real deal" we could laser focus in on those particular individuals, their style, and their training methods to produce a veritable renaissance in the development and progress of Taijiquan. With the way things are going at the moment Taijiquan is quickly spiraling down into a stagnant and irrelevant cesspool of delusion.

Methods used in the test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The Demonstrator (i.e. person claiming they can perform Subtle Fajin), will be attempting to perform Subtle Fajin on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment....
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:03 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:
Ok, so empty force is an byproduct kind of that just seem to happen sometimes, not something you specifically study to gain?


For my teacher everything he did whether touched or not contained the skill set. The levels as they develop are, skin, hair, and air all refering to the correct touch at the point of contact.

One soon learns what happens when force is used or not used either way is bad, as there is another agent at work....something very apparent after one is tossed a couple of times.
.....But then how come some “masters” happily demonstrating this EF over and over on devoted students, aren’t these students there to study and hopefully masters this unique “power”?


donno, something you'd have to ask them about....
.[/quote]
As you write it would seem that your teacher often demonstrated his skill set on you and fellow students, and since the topic is on EF that specific skill was EF ? ...And you write he had a method of levels to teach EF -“skin, hair and air”....This sure sound as you where there to learn the skill of EF .....So I don’t have to ask any others........Well ok, you mention the “skin, hair and air” progress, but also mention “another agent” at work ?........However I must say your teacher seem to be a nice person much the opposite to yours “challenging around in the Beijing parks classmate” 8-)
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby jtan on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:49 am

3 pages so far ...
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:10 pm

jtan wrote:3 pages so far ...



Exactly because they want their own answers.

Not an "answer."

They asked if I was there only seeking the Kong jin,. I say no it was simply part of an underlying process that my teacher taught. Nothing special in of itself.

I talked about levels of sensitivity skin, hair, air, they equate it with something they know nothing about but continue to ask about it.

Kinda of a strange approach to understanding something.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:24 pm

Trick wrote:
.However I must say your teacher seem to be a nice person much the opposite to yours “challenging around in the Beijing parks classmate” 8-)


Not around the parks, just likes to visit Masters with skill to feel it.

I had once asked about a feeling I noted in interacting with some of the others there. I was told that was "Yi" don't think about it don't try to force , don't try to use it, in time you will know it it will come by itself.

The Kong Jin was also like this, developing on its own through the process of training. Not everyone will be able to develop this aspect.

Some of the students had what amounted to a Fight Club in the evening. They were pretty rough. People there train according to level and need. If the need is usage the training reflects this very demanding.

My friend classmate is a nice guy but he likes fighting
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:03 pm

windwalker wrote:
I talked about levels of sensitivity skin, hair, air, they equate it with something they know nothing about but continue to ask about it.

Kinda of a strange approach to understanding something.


I assume “they” in this question means me. Yes awareness and sensitivity is a very if not the most important aspect in the martial arts and perhaps life in general, but how is it applied in life or if we just focus on hand to hand combat, can we use our sensitivity to create a “force” that make resisting and maybe aggressive opponents to hop around as if they where trying to stand on burning coal, so far we only seen maters trusted students to react like that..some see this as proof of EF, most do not...and that how the story will go on until we se a master of the force able to apply it in a “real” situation....Some say(maybe it was you on this forum) that for a person to react in such a way as hopping/stumbling/ falling to a masters slight or no touch that person must have the correct sensitivity ? I think that sound strange, if having the correct sensitivity and awareness one wouldn’t act in such a crazy clumsy way
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:51 pm

Trick wrote:I assume “they” in this question means me. Yes awareness and sensitivity is a very if not the most important aspect in the martial arts and perhaps life in general, but how is it applied in life or if we just focus on hand to hand combat, can we use our sensitivity to create a “force” that make resisting and maybe aggressive opponents to hop around as if they where trying to stand on burning coal, so far we only seen maters trusted students to react like that..some see this as proof of EF, most do not...and that how the story will go on until we se a master of the force able to apply it in a “real” situation

You like to use we, I'm only addressing you...who is this we. The only one, one as to prove anything to is one self. I have.
All that I do here is to try to share some thoughts and experiences from a first hand accounting.


....Some say(maybe it was you on this forum) that for a person to react in such a way as hopping/stumbling/ falling to a masters slight or no touch that person must have the correct sensitivity ? I think that sound strange, if having the correct sensitivity and awareness one wouldn’t act in such a crazy clumsy way
"Empty your mind and follow your partner’s direction without any intention, thereby getting your partner’s intention out of his own center. Project your intention, and connect it to your partner’s attempt at restoring balance."


No it wasn't me.... you seem to want answers to validate your viewpoint.
There is nothing I can say here that will do so.

You and some others seem to have touched on something that you dont really understand rejecting any
answer given...kinda pointless dont ya think. Not here to convince....

a question...

CMA has not been shown to work in a public ring in modern times.
Every time those claiming they use traditional CMA and traditional methods step in to a ring they tend to get knocked out,
while those using non traditional methods that don't appear to be CMA related do not.

Problem is they often claim to represent CMA styles but dont seem to use them in the ring,,,,chen vs muy thai for example.

Why is that?


Does this mean CMA never worked, cant work, or its faked when it is shown to work.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby wiesiek on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:46 am

This whole >empty matter< thing,
We /the board members/ did summoned it up as:
..."It works for easy droppin` into dependency minded peps only ..."
didn`t we?
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:46 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:I assume “they” in this question means me. Yes awareness and sensitivity is a very if not the most important aspect in the martial arts and perhaps life in general, but how is it applied in life or if we just focus on hand to hand combat, can we use our sensitivity to create a “force” that make resisting and maybe aggressive opponents to hop around as if they where trying to stand on burning coal, so far we only seen maters trusted students to react like that..some see this as proof of EF, most do not...and that how the story will go on until we se a master of the force able to apply it in a “real” situation

You like to use we, I'm only addressing you...who is this we. The only one, one as to prove anything to is one self. I have.
All that I do here is to try to share some thoughts and experiences from a first hand accounting.


....Some say(maybe it was you on this forum) that for a person to react in such a way as hopping/stumbling/ falling to a masters slight or no touch that person must have the correct sensitivity ? I think that sound strange, if having the correct sensitivity and awareness one wouldn’t act in such a crazy clumsy way
"Empty your mind and follow your partner’s direction without any intention, thereby getting your partner’s intention out of his own center. Project your intention, and connect it to your partner’s attempt at restoring balance."


No it wasn't me.... you seem to want answers to validate your viewpoint.
There is nothing I can say here that will do so.

You and some others seem to have touched on something that you dont really understand rejecting any
answer given...kinda pointless dont ya think. Not here to convince....

a question...

CMA has not been shown to work in a public ring in modern times.
Every time those claiming they use traditional CMA and traditional methods step in to a ring they tend to get knocked out,
while those using non traditional methods that don't appear to be CMA related do not.

Problem is they often claim to represent CMA styles but dont seem to use them in the ring,,,,chen vs muy thai for example.

Why is that?


Does this mean CMA never worked, cant work, or its faked when it is shown to work.

Now it getting a little silly, but let’s assume “we” mean you and me since I addressed you in my post....Now it seem that you try to cringe away from the topic of EF by talking about Taijiquan or Wing Tsun or any other CMA purists don’t do well in the ring/mat/cage so far, or do you mean if those purists just knew EF they would be more successful?
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby wiesiek on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:50 am

anyway,
I bet, that J.W.`s $10 000 are quite safe.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:53 am

Trick wrote:

Now it getting a little silly, but let’s assume “we” mean you and me since I addressed you in my post....Now it seem that you try to cringe away from the topic of EF by talking about Taijiquan or Wing Tsun or any other CMA purists don’t do well in the ring/mat/cage so far, or do you mean if those purists just knew EF they would be more successful?



Not at all using your own criteria prove that CMA works, outside of your own experience should you feel it does work.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:19 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:

Now it getting a little silly, but let’s assume “we” mean you and me since I addressed you in my post....Now it seem that you try to cringe away from the topic of EF by talking about Taijiquan or Wing Tsun or any other CMA purists don’t do well in the ring/mat/cage so far, or do you mean if those purists just knew EF they would be more successful?



Not at all using your own criteria prove that CMA works, outside of your own experience should you feel it does work.

The thread is about Empty Force not CMA, but anyway wasn’t there a Japanese empty forcer or was he a Kiai master? a couple of years back that took on a challenge from a MMAist? i think he stood one or two seconds longer than that YangTaiji master of recent, could be proof EF is the thing 8-)
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:39 am

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:

Now it getting a little silly, but let’s assume “we” mean you and me since I addressed you in my post....Now it seem that you try to cringe away from the topic of EF by talking about Taijiquan or Wing Tsun or any other CMA purists don’t do well in the ring/mat/cage so far, or do you mean if those purists just knew EF they would be more successful?



Not at all using your own criteria prove that CMA works, outside of your own experience should you feel it does work.

The thread is about Empty Force not CMA, but anyway wasn’t there a Japanese empty forcer or was he a Kiai master? a couple of years back that took on a challenge from a MMAist? i think he stood one or two seconds longer than that YangTaiji master of recent, could be proof EF is the thing 8-)


Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

You mean like the CMA guys who got knocked out in Thailand some yrs back. I think the longest one lasted 10 seconds. Sounds like you don't feel CMA works. Kong jin is just one of many types of Jin that can be used all a part of CMA.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:29 am

windwalker wrote:[

Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

You mean like the CMA guys who got knocked out in Thailand some yrs back. I think the longest one lasted 10 seconds. Sounds like you don't feel CMA works. Kong jin is just one of many types of Jin that can be used all a part of CMA.

For TCM’s to work in the ring or similar against well trained MA’s athletes one has to adapt ones training to the specific sport arena one want to enter, even a “modern” wrestler who want to box would learn some boxing and vice versa.....I actually don’t believe that most of the traditional hand to hand combat arts of let’s say China and Japan where meant to be put in use agains another “well trained” fighters of their time such as soldiers, but there is the possibility that in olden times they actually trained differently maybe more as modern day athletes ? I think most of these traditional MA’s where/are civil MA’s to work as an “back up“ against unpolished ruffians and hooligans....Maybe it’s in this sense EF is to be applied? but for most people(I guess) it’s hard to believe that. Doesn’t matter how many drawings and diagrams of spheres/orbs and such you post and claim it’s all science, it don’t make EF more believable.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby klonk on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:39 am

If LKJ were a thing, it would have a forty million dollar budget from US Special Forces--for starters.
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