Empty Force Challenge

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:37 pm

johnwang wrote:
Appledog wrote:he never mentioned six harmonies when discussing Taijiquan theory and practice.

Because Taiji violates 6 harmony guideline. Here is an example that foot stop but hand is still moving - hand and foot are not coordinated (start at the same time, also stop at the same time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpDm0EB ... e=youtu.be


Different method.

Teacher Gao, directly talks about this I dont get why you have a problem
in addressing what he talks about,,,,

this clip to be clear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIULbQ-Hh6g
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Appledog on Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:50 pm

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:17 pm

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:So strange,,,I keep saying its part of a process you and some others keep insisting that its a special skill set.
"first in mind" often repeated among those who practice taiji....Think about why this is said...

check out the link.


I already answered this one.

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

It might help answer some of your own questions....


...the article you linked to me corroborates everything I said. ex. the idea of a 'force model' which was created outside of a direct transmission and which "does not exist outside of the mind". This does not support your ideas as you have presented them here.


follow up post: https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 45#p463484

I'm still waiting for an answer to the posts I made. I'd like to know particularly how you train EF. The particulars.

I have to go out so I hope that will give you time to properly respond -- when I get back I will post the EF training materials I have (or a link to them) and hopefully a link can be found.


They do support it, its just a different model being used. In fact a lot of the same ideas are expressed between all who use or follow this model they all say and are able to do the same things. Its very consistent.

I've updated my own findings / method to a more western physics based approach after spending awhile 10 +yrs in direct contact with my teacher and those in the group in china, gaining some small skill and understanding,
I felt an updated approach was needed in order to clear any ambiguity about the process for those I work with now.

My own findings are very consistent with the physics theories used to help explain, check and verify the practice.

I see no point in talking about this on line.....

While not directly associated with any one taiji style the focus of this work is to help lead one in achieving inner and outer freedom through movement aligned with classical Chinese thought commonly expressed as taiji, physic based theory is used to confirm and test providing a context to examine the work.

you are correct in that I no longer label what I do now as taiji although
others who interact with me continue to do so..
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:30 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:17 pm

Windwalker......Yes I found a few vid of Gao Zhuangfei on youku including the “Russian” one that I think would be the same you make reference to...What I see is just what stage magicians do when for example pick pocketing someone from the audience, the audience and the “victim” are there to see and experience “magic” just as MrGao’s students are there to experience something “extra ordinary”. You keep saying we must understand what MrGao is saying to be able to understand what’s going on, i would say turn off the sound and see clear in this case.....Yes he is talking about what the audience is there to hear kind of and of course that help to keep their focus on his words while demonstrate, but more important is how he speak using gestures much like an stage magician, and to reinforce the “ take the focus away” he use a piece of paper as an magician’s stick, with it he’s “ “drawing lines” around the victims body and often direct the focus to the top of the victims head, all this make the victim rigid and kind of top-heavy, by then the victim is easily off balanced in a direction that is also used in good regular push-hand ........But there is no “hopping” done by the victims as seen in many other EF vids except for MrGao himself and his big guy assistant, but their hopping is just to keep the audience(who are there to see magic) in belief......When seeing this i feel an professional stage magician has far more skill.
Trick

 

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:52 pm

Trick wrote:Windwalker......Yes I found a few vid of Gao Zhuangfei on youku including the “Russian” one that I think would be the same you make reference to...Thanks for the effortWhat I see is just what stage magicians do when for example pick pocketing someone from the audience, the audience and the “victim” are there to see and experience “magic” just as MrGao’s students are there to experience something “extra ordinary”. You keep saying we must understand what MrGao is saying to be able to understand what’s going on,So that one could understand the theory and see if it what is done accordes with it, whether one agrees with it or not. The conversation should reflect this. When I look at clips even if I dont agree with them I look at the training, theory and usage to see if it all matches....I note you neglected to post what he said he was doing, and only posted what you thought he was doing.... i would say turn off the sound and see clear in this case.....Yes he is talking about what the audience is there to hear kind of and of course that help to keep their focus on his words while demonstrate, but more important is how he speak using gestures much like an stage magician, and to reinforce the “ take the focus away” he use a piece of paper as an magician’s stick, with it he’s “ “drawing lines” around the victims body and often direct the focus to the top of the victims head, all this make the victim rigid and kind of top-heavy, by then the victim is easily off balanced in a direction that is also used in good regular push-hand The props he uses are just to help show and explain what he is doing and how, I also can do and occasionally use props such as small twig or what ever I happen to have at the time that obviously can not support any weight applied to it. Its done to illustrate a point.

If you feel its done for another reason not here to change minds, or validate what is shown thats what you feel and have stated so
........

But there is no “hopping” done by the victims as seen in many other EF vids except for MrGao himself and his big guy assistant, but their hopping is just to keep the audience(who are there to see magic) in belief......When seeing this i feel an professional stage magician has far more skill.


I could offer an explanation for this but what would be the point, you've already come to your own conclusions its not about me being right or you wrong.
I see no point in wasting more time on this with you, do you?

Good, you got to see the clip and have an opinion on what was shown.

My observations are based on my own experiences over a long period of time,
and some of the small things I can do having studied with a teacher that can do similar things as teacher Gao.

I take it being listed as one of the Notable students

Luo Shuhuan (骆舒焕),
Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞)

of 王培生 Wang Peisheng has no meaning for you.....

This too is ok, although one might assume what ever he is doing reflects
what his teacher taught.

cheers
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:06 am

About MrGao’s own hopping while demonstrating, my theory about that it’s a way to reinforce the physical “rigidness” and divert the mental focus for the next “touch” on the demonstrating object....Ok, so i looked around a little and found this about the Northern Wu-school - “Quan You, the originator of Wu style taijiquan, had a disciple named Guo Fen, who reached a high level of skill. Little is known about him other than he passed his art to Dong Yicheng, who in turn taught Liu Chanjiang, the author’s main teacher. Liu Changjiang feels that Dong Yicheng possessed superior understanding of the esoteric, internal aspects of taijiquan. Neither Guo Fen nor Dong Yicheng are well known or famous teachers, but their genealogical closeness to Quan You is significant.” - It would seem that MrGao also learned from this more “esoteric” line of northern Wu-Taijiquan http://northernwu.com/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=19
Trick

 

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Appledog on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:34 am

windwalker wrote:While not directly associated with any one taiji style the focus of this work is to help lead one in achieving inner and outer freedom through movement aligned with classical Chinese thought commonly expressed as taiji, physic based theory is used to confirm and test providing a context to examine the work.

you are correct in that I no longer label what I do now as taiji although
others who interact with me continue to do so..


Why don't you just call it xingyiquan? Or a mix? I understand that it sounds ridiculous but it would make more sense and help promote more understanding in CMA. One of the problems here is that Tai Chi got way too popular and it entered the public's consciousness of "that slow moving chinese exercise thing (that magically produces top-level fighters)". The illusion that "Tai Chi is Qigong" has also been abused to mean the reverse. It simply isn't true. So some unscrupulous Chinese started mixing and matching, it got so bad that in the 70s entire arts were wholesale "conversted" into forms of Tai Chi and pawned off on unsuspecting westerners (yes really). I think as you get more and more high level western people into real Tai Chi, you are going to see more and more people speak out against this kind of mistaken identity. The damage has been done, but it's not quite a lost cause yet.

Without reservation all empty force players train using standing meditation. Standing meditation is not a traditional way to train Tai Chi. I understand that it can be used in certain limited ways, however, you certainly would not use postures from Yiquan or Xingyiquan. If you're standing in santishou or tree-hugging posture for Tai Chi training, you are practising Xingyi/Yiquan and not Tai Chi. You might ask why this is so important. Well, perhaps it isn't, other than Tai Chi itself has something interesting and unique to offer and I would prefer it would not get obscured. Tai Chi is not the same as Xingyi. I've been saying this for a while and people just go "Huh?" The short of it is that different training methods produce different results.

All the empty force information websites I have checked show a promotion of Xingyiquan and Yiquan ideas and a lack of understanding or promotion of Tai Chi ideas. An article on universal-tao.com even relegates Tai Chi as a warmup to the empty force training! here are some other quotes from that site:

[*] "These three varieties of the empty force all come from standing-on-stake; ...this is the key to the empty force, ...",
[*] "Ninety-five percent of the power of the empty force comes from standing-on-stake. How well you stand, and how long you spend standing, affect the level of power you will attain. Standing-on-stake is an exercise in stillness."
[*] "...all jing comes from standing-on-stake."

Two other sites I found interesting are here and here.

This isn't a slight against anyone or anything. I just want the truth to be known. Apparently M. Hu Yaozhen was known as "one finger under heaven" for his ability to zap people with it. That's a story told by Feng, he got zapped from a distance. In fact I've always wanted to learn Xingyi, but I am away from my teacher, and I can't find a good instructor near me in Taiwan (I live in a very small town). Actually if anyone knows a good xingyi teacher between Tainan and Kaohsiung please contact me :) I will have more free time in a couple of months.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:49 am

Appledog wrote:

Why don't you just call it xingyiquan? Or a mix?

I call what I do “Tsang-Lu” 蒼 鷺

Describes a method developed from the basic practices of hop gar, and taiji, forming a unique approach embodying aspects of both.

A practice based on developing an understanding of
“moving with awareness”

what this means, the practice, functional usage.

.


Its what I do, where I'm at....I make no other claims. :-\
What I do is functional, and is practiced as such....


Teachers I know, who teach only hop gar or taiji
are very supportive of my practice . Those that I've met
in Taiwan appreciate the different approach.

later
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:00 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:18 am

So you guys(WW & AD)both live in Taiwan ?
Trick

 

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:50 am

From one of the links that appledog, posted.http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=5548.0
Some had asked about other styles or teachers doing or using the same concept.

Much to my own surprise some of the wording directly echoed what I was told by my teacher and
some of the experiences there.

Posting it for information only not in support, conformation or to change any minds on this
highlighted styles or teachers that some asked about or that I had some knowledge of.


Many past martial artists unknowingly developed empty force and became famous for their superior fighting prowess. For instance, Yang Pan-hou, who died in 1881, was the son of tai chi chuan's founder, Yang Lu-chan. He once used empty force to counterattack an opponent who tried to attack him from the rear. Yang simply arched his back and set his opponent flying backward without even touching him.

Another famous Chinese martial artist who had access to empty force was Kuo Yun-shen. He taught hsing-i to Wang Xiang-zai, who in turn made martial art history with his da cheng quan (also known as i quan). Kuo could throw would-be assailants backward by snapping his shoulder in their direction, long before any physical contact was made. Not to be left out, China's other famous internal system, pa kua, had a renowned expert who also possessed empty force - Tung Hai-chuan. His empty force palm technique was the equivalent of no-hands judo.

Morihei Uyeshiba, the founder of aikido, has many accounts written about him which describe his ability to throw people without touching them. However, the first person to actually teach empty force as an important segment of a martial art system was Peng-Si Yu (1902-1983), a Shanghai medical doctor and the best-known student of Wang Xiang-zai. Yu was the only disciple of Wang to develop empty force and became famous throughout China for his martial arts expertise. Before coming to the U.S. in 1980, Yu received his Western medical degree in Germany before World War II, and was a medical professor at the University of Shanghai. He taught serious martial art students at his home in Shanghai in his spare time.

Yu took Wang Xiang-zai's da cheng quan system one step further by adding Tibetan Buddhist meditation practices that eventually brought students' chi down below the navel. Here, the body's chi channels could be opened completely. While the chi channels don't need to be completely open to use empty force, the person with open chi has far greater power and control, and will recover sooner than the person who has little chi control.
In 1981, Yu and his wife, Min OuYang, came to the U.S. to do research at the Stanford Research Institute in Palo Alto, California. In 1983, he died at the age of 81, leaving his wife to carry on his xing-i teachings. A good friend of mine Doc Fai Wong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Doc-Fai and Jane Hollender a writer did some work with her published inside Kung Fu mag a while back

Min, Yu's wife of 60 years, is well qualified to teach his system. She has devoted her entire life to martial arts training. As a young woman, she practiced shaolin and tai chi chuan martial arts. After marrying Yu, she learned from him and became his teaching assistant. In his later years, she did most of the actual teaching while he supervised.

Empty Force Elements

Most people who have seen martial arts movies picture empty force as the ability to break or move inanimate objects simply by looking at them. But this isn't so. True empty force is the ability to use chi to affect another person's chi, and therefore his physical well-being, without touching him.

Three elements are important in developing empty force: the mind (sum), intention (i), and internal energy (chi).

Sum and i go hand-in-hand. However, each need special conditioning before they can successfully operate together. To improve concentration, the mind must be clear and calm when practicing, and meditation is one way to develop a calm, clear mind.
Intention is the will to accomplish a goal, whether it's self-defense, healing or any other objective. Special internal exercises develop intention by using the eyes as a vehicle to focus on a target. As Min explains, "If you have to injure someone for self-defense, you must look at them with mean eyes."

Internal energy - chi - is literally defined in Chinese as air. Yu further qualified it as the amount of oxygen available to body cells, carried throughout the body by blood in the circulatory system. Although some people think chi is increased by certain forced breathing patterns, Yu's followers don't believe this. Forced or concentrated breathing stops the downward progress of chi.

It doesn't advance it. On the other hand, calm meditation with natural, quiet breathing relaxes the mind and body enough to allow the chi, over time, to flow smoothly and evenly as it progresses down to a location three fingers below the tan tien (navel). Although it looks like a kung fu fighting move, this is one of the standing meditation postures in empty-force training. It's reserved for people whose chi has completely opened.

Opening the Chi Channels

When most people begin their internal energy development, their chi (breathing vibration point) is located high in their chests. But as they practice xing-i meditation for about one hour daily, their chi often moves down below the solar plexus. After two years, if their meditation is calm and if they exercise proper posture, it may move into the navel itself. When the chi finally reaches the navel, the body's chi channels are ready to open completely. At that point, with the help of an expert, the channels can be pushed open.

Before their chi is completely open, some people think they can lower their chi into the tan tien by pushing with their own concentration and intention. However, this is momentary and does not mean their chi is really into the navel area or that their chi will stay down permanently. It can easily move back up. When the chi has actually been pushed through beyond the tan tien, it will never go back up. The chi channels are opened forever.


How Empty Force Works

Empty force has no shape or color. As with radiation, it is a force that can easily penetrate another person's body. For instance, if your chi isn't developed enough to withstand an alien chi, you can suffer ill effects.

If the average person walked into Min's class and demanded a sample of empty force, he would be refused - not because empty force is a secret, but because without training and chi development that person could be seriously injured. If Min only used enough of her own chi for him to feel the effects, he might have a headache, become dizzy, turn pale, or lose consciousness. Any less and her chi would merely pass through his body unfelt. Yet in a fight, the result could be tremendous. For these reasons, only students who have developed their own chi strength can experience the empty force.

Intention plays an important role in empty force, too. If the person using empty force does not pinpoint the target, the chi will simply pass through these people or objects. But if the intention is to bounce it off a wall and into a target, the wall becomes a resistance that sends the chi back from its intended target. To further illustrate, if Min focused her empty force chi on one student, and another person walked between them, that person would feel nothing, since Min's mind and intention were focused on her original student.

Empty force is most often used well before actual contact is made. The student rushes forward and is stopped in his tracks, as if a wall had dropped between the student and Min. From there, she controls the student's every move.

Because the student's own chi developed, he handles her force by bouncing (jumping) like an inflated ball or by smoothly rolling back into a balanced position. By using his back, the student maintains his body as a single coordinated unit that returns to its original position, ready to receive more chi. From a fighting perspective, the student whose chi is open has an advantage. He uses his training and chi development to resist pushes and blows by bouncing back into a fighting position, unlike the average person who loses his balance, falls, and may be injured by the fall alone. If the student resists empty force - for example, by trying to jump from it - he can become sick or internally injured.

Due to the student's own chi development, his chi radiates from his body as if it were a ball surrounding him.Referred to as a qi chong, or qi field As Min exudes her strong chi as empty force, it contacts the student's chi. It bounces him back, but doesn't penetrate his body. The person who has not controlled and developed his chi has internal development too weak to resist her concentrated chi and will either not react to a small amount of empty force, or can be injured by a larger amount.
.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Appledog on Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:54 am

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:24 pm

Appledog wrote:
Trick wrote:So you guys(WW & AD)both live in Taiwan ?


Yes and no. I'm probably moving to China in the next month or two.

You’ll be moving to another province then 8-)
Trick

 

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby wushutiger on Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:33 pm

Windwalker, Wang Peisheng never did this nonsense!
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:26 pm

wushutiger wrote:Windwalker, Wang Peisheng never did this nonsense!



Why not address it to the video that's showing him explaining what he does and why. Why not address it with teacher Gao, who I believe is head of the northern Wu style Association who also uses the same terminology and demos some of the same actions.

You mention nonsense,
your opinion but didn't explain what it's based on.
If you feel you need to talk about it why not take the theroy that's posted here and use it as a starting point
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby wushutiger on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:34 pm

He is performing nonsense, it is the perfect video showing the complete delusion and destruction of CMA.
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