Empty Force Challenge

[windwalker]

I completely disagree. There is a tiny overlap in what they are showing, but if I watched both videos without sound I would come to very different conclusions as to what's going on in each. Interesting enough he talks about some of the same things that Dan, and Roy talk and demo in the other clip.

Over the years, I've touched hands plenty of times with folks from both of these "camps"/"schools of thought"/"training styles", both in "demo" mode and non-cooperatively.The teacher demoning is a noted master head of the n-wu style, in the clip I believe hes in his late 70s or early 80s. No I would say that you've never touched hands with anyone of his level in taiji...If you had you would know. In general, probably the most dramatic distinction is that the former (shown in the first clip) becomes stiff and fairly ineffective under real/more pressure and doesn't look anything like the demo anymore, whereas the latter looks and feels pretty much the same, with pressure or without. Again based on your experience mine are different. With those that I know they ask for more pressure which one soons learns why its not good to "give more then one can eat"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1GHIqp57XQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU330bFFonY

some of its in Russian...one is translating what is said in Chinese to another person in Russian.
The teacher is quite famous and very skilled. Maybe this will help in explaining and understanding his view point

The first he touches on open close

The second clip he talks about kong jin, and space


王培生
Wang Peisheng
Born 1919
Wuqing, Hebei, China
Died 2004 (aged 84–85)
Beijing, China

Notable students Luo Shuhuan (骆舒焕),
Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞)

I have to wonder if you really feel that you've met anyone of his skill level......

my point and only point is that with out understanding what is being said.
Unless one has had a similar experience its kinda hard to evaluate to talk about it...
more so if the point as often happens on this site, it seems the real point is to denigrate the teachers.

that is except those that some know....even if they appear to be doing the same things...

[origami_itto]

that is except those that some know....even if they appear to be doing the same things...

What things are they doing?

[Trick]

And here’s something interesting with master handling “attackers” about two minutes in https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMTc4MD ... 244740.0.0

Feel free to post any clip of someone doing CMA in a competitive environment that looks like what they trained
doing well. Lots of stories but so far nada,,,you can be a first..

Yes I know I’m free to do that but the topic is about EF so i posted two vids of just that, one in English so we don’t have to babble about translations, and not only that, in the first vid the EF master is the Sensei of one of the greatest boxers of all time, how about that!!? ......In the second vid that master are easily bouncing off attacks such as punches, kicks and strangulations, which are more inline with attacks one might have to face in a self defence situation......Why do you want me to post anything else, aren’t these vids good examples of the Empty Force ?

[Trick]

王培生
Wang Peisheng
Born 1919
Wuqing, Hebei, China
Died 2004 (aged 84–85)
Beijing, China

Notable students Luo Shuhuan (骆舒焕),
Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞)

I have to wonder if you really feel that you've met anyone of his skill level......

my point and only point is that with out understanding what is being said.
Unless one has had a similar experience its kinda hard to evaluate to talk about it...
more so if the point as often happens on this site, it seems the real point is to denigrate the teachers.

that is except those that some know....even if they appear to be doing the same things...

I can not see the YouTube videos so don’t really know what is going on in them, but you keep bringing up Wang Peicheng. I studied some with Li Bingci’s group in Beijing, Li Bingci is a boxing brother of Wang Peicheng in the Wu-style of Taijiquan. And I believe when I studied with that group Li Bingci where the current head of Wu-Taijiquan in Beijing or even northern China...I never witnessed any display of EF like stuff in that group

[Bao]

I studied some with Li Bingci’s group in Beijing, Li Bingci is a boxing brother of Wang Peicheng in the Wu-style of Taijiquan. And I believe when I studied with that group Li Bingci where the current head of Wu-Taijiquan in Beijing or even northern China...I never witnessed any display of EF like stuff in that group

I am sure you can find the WPS PH seminar on youku. Wang Peisheng didn't speak about EF, LKJ or similar, but in the vid he uses the expression "to attack the mind".

There are many ways to attack someone's mind. Feinting is a way to attack the mind and provoke a reaction. IMO, feint or provoke are better words to explain what he did in that vid. Maybe you can say that feinting can also be a way to spread out your center to attack someone, I don't know. The way Gao expresses what he does seem a bit too abstract and philosophical for my own taste. I am not sure about how much or what Gao could do without his own students, but I know there are ways to provoke reactions and for the "reciever" the "attack" can feel confusing or quite "real". There's no point really to discuss what and how Gao does anything without being there and feel it yourself.

Many things you see different performers do, mind-readers, hypnotists and even many types of scoundrels "attack the mind" of their victims. Regardless if what they do is fake or trickery, they still get the outcome that they want. Or at least they can turn the outcome to their own advantage. They know how to make someone react and they know how to handle the response, regardless how they respond. And again, for the reciever, what has been done on them can feel very real.

[windwalker]

王培生
Wang Peisheng
Born 1919
Wuqing, Hebei, China
Died 2004 (aged 84–85)
Beijing, China

Notable students Luo Shuhuan (骆舒焕),
Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞)

I have to wonder if you really feel that you've met anyone of his skill level......

my point and only point is that with out understanding what is being said.
Unless one has had a similar experience its kinda hard to evaluate to talk about it...
more so if the point as often happens on this site, it seems the real point is to denigrate the teachers.

that is except those that some know....even if they appear to be doing the same things...

I can not see the YouTube videos so don’t really know what is going on in them, but you keep bringing up Wang Peicheng. I studied some with Li Bingci’s group in Beijing, Li Bingci is a boxing brother of Wang Peicheng in the Wu-style of Taijiquan. And I believe when I studied with that group Li Bingci where the current head of Wu-Taijiquan in Beijing or even northern China...I never witnessed any display of EF like stuff in that group

Interesting I cant see the clips you posted they wont play... Ask some of the group you studied with about Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞) is listed as one of Wang Peisheng most notable students. As I understand it he is head of n-wu now, could be wrong....you should be able to find many clips of him in China probably some the same clips posted to Utube

He is also in Beijing.....

kong jin, is contained within part of a much larger process that some styles, lineages and teachers or practices are noted for /
become noted for.... not everyone can attain a skill to the same degree.

How they use it or whether they even teach it directly depends on the group.
Whether touched or not the "process" by which it works is the same....

Teacher Gao, outlines much of the theory and demos it....
For native speakers like JW that seem to have problems with what is shown it would be better to post what is being said for context along with what they have problems with.......this would be more interesting and productive.

FWIW I did have the clip in question with teacher Gao, translated by one of my students...this was ignored....he talked about yin/yang, intention, the physical body, six harmonies, cross body alignment, and how one could use this by changing the points of interactions yin/yang point...either making it more yin, or yang as needed...all having to do with the point of contact and what some might call a field of awareness or qi chong. My teachers group in China refer to the field as qi chong..or qi field.

kinda moot now...
....
The clips of teacher Gao, I posted will tend to translate to what most post here but is never shown....problems always arise when what is talked about is shown...
always

Kong jin, peng jin ect are part of a much larger process/skill sets, that are somewhat unique to arts called or viewed as internal. A distinction that some might not agree with concerning CMA...As a young teen studying CMA I cant really remember this distinction...all CMA uses qi....how its used for me is the distinction. With the group I practiced with in China this distinction was very clear.


disclaimer: not a student of teacher Gao, never met him although I have met those who studied with him directly.
I do agree and find much of his explanations make clear what I've experienced but was not explained in much detail.
Detailed explanations wasn't one of my teachers method of teaching...

[windwalker]

I studied some with Li Bingci’s group in Beijing, Li Bingci is a boxing brother of Wang Peicheng in the Wu-style of Taijiquan. And I believe when I studied with that group Li Bingci where the current head of Wu-Taijiquan in Beijing or even northern China...I never witnessed any display of EF like stuff in that group

I am sure you can find the WPS PH seminar on youku. Wang Peisheng didn't speak about EF, LKJ or similar, but in the vid he uses the expression "to attack the mind".

There are many ways to attack someone's mind. Feinting is a way to attack the mind and provoke a reaction. IMO, feint or provoke are better words to explain what he did in that vid. Maybe you can say that feinting can also be a way to spread out your center to attack someone, I don't know.

IME, It really has nothing to do with the mind, it does have to do with what he mentioned that you feel is to abstract. The body reacts to what it feels before the conscious mind can acknowledge it

The way Gao expresses what he does seem a bit too abstract and philosophical for my own taste. I am not sure about how much or what Gao could do without his own students, but I know there are ways to provoke reactions and for the "reciever" the "attack" can feel confusing or quite "real". There's no point really to discuss what and how Gao does anything without being there and feel it yourself.

Yes as always its best to find out by ones self.

Interesting about the students...As is often the case some of the students used to be students of other styles or practices they stay because they encounter something they cant explain often becoming noted exponents of it is the process. Wei Shuren being a good example of this

Master Wei was skeptical and it must have shown on his face. Master Wang waved
Master Wei over. Leaning back in his chair Master Wang asked Wei to extend his middle fingers.

Master Wang
grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible
to fajing him in this manner.

In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected
this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what
Master Wang just demonstrated on him. So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had
learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang

https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

Many things you see different performers do, mind-readers, hypnotists and even many types of scoundrels "attack the mind" of their victims. Regardless if what they do is fake or trickery, they still get the outcome that they want. Or at least they can turn the outcome to their own advantage. They know how to make someone react and they know how to handle the response, regardless how they respond. And again, for the reciever, what has been done on them can feel very real.

Would not agree with this characterisation, we all have our own experiences.

The process by which it works has been outlined by many, noted teachers.

One should consider what the agent being acted on is, how and why.
this has been touched on in other post....

Most might feel they know and understand what is called ting jin....but never seem to consider what is it that they listen to.
maybe feeling its pressure ie sense of touch...I would say sense of "intent"

Many who play push hands can be seen eyes looking away almost like they are trying listen for something focusing on
sense of touch to understand whats going on....

IMO a mistaken approach that tends to build bad habits.

kong jin, an expression of focused intention can be used to move or cause a persons qi chong
to be moved...Some may feel this and react to it, others may not feel it being moved and yet still be affected when the others body
fills the empty space, they will be thrown out. This interaction teacher Gao, talked about and demoed

"Form does not differ from Emptiness
And Emptiness does not differ from Form.
Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form."



A more understandable way might be to look at a wave, and wave dynamics.

part of my main focus at this time.

[Dmitri]

they appear to be doing the same things

The crucial, qualitative difference is in the amount of emphasis on "mind" vs emphasis on "mind AND body"
It seems your camp is 90% mind/10% body. (Or even 100% mind/0% body, ideally, which is when all that LKJ stuff happens.)
The problem with it is that it only works if the other guy is cooperating or is highly suggestible.
When your body is conditioned a certain way (with the help of the mind, but that's different), only then you can "use the mind" to achieve better results. The 90/10 or 100/0 is a fun game to play for sure, but one can get easily lost in it, just like so many people get lost in the "stationary push-hands game" for example.

You might eventually forget that it's (supposed to be) a martial art.

On that note, I have a question: how do you inflict actual damage to the opponent using your method? I mean what physiologically affects them in the end, preventing them from continuing to fight? With "regular" MA it's always some sort of a physical submission or damage -- a knockout, a choke, a broken limb sending them into shock, etc. -- I'm not talking about situations where they just give up fighting for whatever reason. How does the 90/10 method work, in that regard?

[windwalker]

they appear to be doing the same things

The crucial, qualitative difference is in the amount of emphasis on "mind" vs emphasis on "mind AND body"
It seems your camp is 90% mind/10% body. (Or even 100% mind/0% body, ideally, which is when all that LKJ stuff happens.)
The problem with it is that it only works if the other guy is cooperating or is highly suggestible.

And you know this how? your making assumptions about something that you've yet to experience watching demos and thinking this is the way its used?

My experience with Aikido was in 1980 in HI. with one of the teachers there. We often talked, he taught and trained with 2 schools of Aikido on the island of Oahu , one originating with Koichi Tohei and another school whose name I’ve long forgotten. He mentioned that in Aikido there were factions who followed different methods. We would often talk about the differences. One based on developing and using something called aiki, the other according to him seemed to be more based in practical usage for self defense, a little easier to understand and achieve.. Interesting enough he was the one who suggested I study taiji at the time.



When your body is conditioned a certain way (with the help of the mind, but that's different), only then you can "use the mind" to achieve better results. The 90/10 or 100/0 is a fun game to play for sure, but one can get easily lost in it, just like so many people get lost in the "stationary push-hands game" for example. Dont agree with your description, on what using the mind means, why continue to frame it with in your experience asking about something you haven't experienced . I can tell you that my class mates, and I would feel sick from the effects when our teacher would demo on us...one would feel like throwing up....nothing to do with the mind..

I had asked one of my first taiji teachers come visit us in Beijing a long while back. He brought one of his long time students a big hawaiian guy...After watching one of the demos, his student asked my teacher to try on him...From 10 ft away my teacher motioned like he was pulling him, the student started to move forward began sweating and almost passed out and felt really sick afterwards....In asking our teacher about this he said he could stop the qi or cause it to run backwards ect...Most there did not like to be the one used in demos because of this. The reactions are what the body experiences below the conscious level, depending on level of practitioner the effects can be quite severe as the one being demoed on may not feel the effects until its to late..by then the damage is done..

You might eventually forget that it's (supposed to be) a martial art.One could say and point out that many others say the same things about those practicing Aiki..yet to be shown in use outside of the context of training or demos against a resisting opponent as most like to say..

There is 2 parts to it, one is gaining the skill the other how to apply and use it. by skill I refer to the process itself not to only the kong jin.
Some gain the skill but dont care much for the martial part, others never get develop it but still like the practice only very few develop and
go on to use it in a martial way

On that note, I have a question: how do you inflict actual damage to the opponent using your method? I mean what physiologically affects them in the end, preventing them from continuing to fight? With "regular" MA it's always some sort of a physical submission or damage -- a knockout, a choke, a broken limb sending them into shock, etc. -- I'm not talking about situations where they just give up fighting for whatever reason. How does the 90/10 method work, in that regard?

Again framing it to your understanding, what is 90/10....who mentioned this.
My method,,,,mmmm interesting. What is shown in most demos is called long force, this allows the others body to have time to react
to what it feels as a whole unit and not be damaged...

If someone wants to hurt a person the time is so short that not all the body can react as a unit.
If it stops at a limb that limb will tend to break, if at the body, the inside will be damaged....



It really doesnt seem like the questions are about wanting to know about something rather to confirm
what one already knows... dont really see the point of it...

you asked some questions I've given some answers

later

[Dmitri]

Thanks for trying to answer.

what is 90/10....who mentioned this

You did, and others in your line of training I've met -- not those exact numbers (that's my symbolism to make a point), but the utmost importance and prevalence of mind over body/frame when practicing form and PH had been repeated enough times by enough people.

Re. this:

From 10 ft away my teacher motioned like he was pulling him, the student started to move forward began sweating and almost passed out and felt really sick afterwards

Fascinating story; I've heard too many over the years, including from people I know and trust. Experienced and witnessed "weird things" (and even made some happen) myself, likely more so than an average person. Let it all go eventually, because I've grown to realize that none of those would withstand any serious (yet simple) double-blind tests by uninterested parties. But, of course, to each their own.
It's funny though, that you give this esoteric example and yet in the same post you say I'm "making assumptions about the way it's used"... What gives?

P. S. It's certainly possible that watching that stuff in person could make one sick, -- although for a different reason...

[johnwang]

Re. this:

From 10 ft away my teacher motioned like he was pulling him, the student started to move forward began sweating and almost passed out and felt really sick afterwards

Fascinating story; ...

This is how you can kill someone without having to commit a crime.

[windwalker]

Thanks for trying to answer.

what is 90/10....who mentioned this

You did,you'd have to show me this, its not the way I look at it. and others in your line of training I've met -- not those exact numbers (that's my symbolism to make a point), but the utmost importance and prevalence of mind over body/frame when practicing form and PH had been repeated enough times by enough people.if this is the point, yes I would say the same but using the body is ok also just doesn't work out well for those who do when they encounter those that dont depending on level...

Re. this:

From 10 ft away my teacher motioned like he was pulling him, the student started to move forward began sweating and almost passed out and felt really sick afterwards

Fascinating story; I've heard too many over the years, including from people I know and trust. Experienced and witnessed "weird things" (and even made some happen) myself, likely more so than an average person. Let it all go eventually, because I've grown to realize that none of those would withstand any serious (yet simple) double-blind tests by uninterested parties. But, of course, to each their own.
It's funny though, that you give this esoteric example and yet in the same post you say I'm "making assumptions about the way it's used"... What gives?

an example in training is not really how it would be used at least with those who have some skill that I've met...I see no point in addressing this here

P. S. It's certainly possible that watching that stuff in person could make one sick, -- although for a different reason...

My teachers practice attracted a verity of people from all over with many different backgrounds. Even Tom, among others from RSF have made their way there along time back although he did not experience kong jin directly, indirectly he felt it while interacting with master Zhang. Good times

People who practice something tend to Interpret things through their own lens, many of which some have had on for a long time, xingyi, bagau, chen, or other taiji stylist would come and and interact with the group there, many stay to become students trying to understand the what was going on and hopefully gain some skill in it.

At times things can get very heated as people tried to explain things through their own lens feeling what they thought was correct even though they could not duplicate it even being there and feeling it directly.

In this aspect I was kind of unique not being able to understand directly through language, my understanding came about though long hrs of practice and being used to demo things by master zhang not always fun ....often times I would spend up to a yr working on one concept that master Zhang might point out after returning to the US, like what it means to be straight or some other aspect....

In returning to China often those their would note my improvements not quite understanding how they came about...for them I was kind of an anomaly, often helping them understand what they couldnt understand directly though master Zhang...His method of teaching was not really geared for easy understanding,,,just the way he was trained back in the day...

In closing I get it, why people are skeptical, my point was that with out a common understanding or ability to allow for the different idea explained in most of the clips I post,,, its kinds pointless ,which is why I would prefer to discuss what is said and compare what is demoed not what one thinks is happening...

things are cool until what is said is shown...

The skill sets as you mentioned take awhile and not everyone will develop it to the same degree.

Many reasons for this.

[Appledog]

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.

[johnwang]

he never mentioned six harmonies when discussing Taijiquan theory and practice.

Because Taiji violates 6 harmony guideline. Here is an example that foot stop but hand is still moving - hand and foot are not coordinated (start at the same time, also stop at the same time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpDm0EB ... e=youtu.be

[windwalker]

FWIW I did have the clip in question with teacher Gao, translated by one of my students...this was ignored....he talked about yin/yang, intention, the physical body, six harmonies, cross body alignment, and how one could use this by changing the points of interactions yin/yang point...either making it more yin, or yang as needed...all having to do with the point of contact and what some might call a field of awareness or qi chong. My teachers group in China refer to the field as qi chong..or qi field.

kinda moot now...

You keep saying it arises out of Taiji practice but you haven't exactly told us what particular practices those are. It's occurred to me you may believe what you have been taught is Tai Chi when it really isn't. You may have been taught some qigong exercises or daoyin apart from the form. Can you comment on any of those, or are they secret? If you have been taught any kind of "neigong" which is required to develop this kind of force apart from the form and push hands, (i.e. a type of "required qigong") then it almost certainly isn't "orthodox" Taijiquan. I know you "don't care" about this level of authenticity, but for the record I'd like to figure out where it is coming from. When you mentioned six harmonies I immediately thought 'xing yi'.

The clips I posted cover it by teacher Gao, a noted Wu style taiji master....I see no need to go over what he says and explains.
Have some one translate the clip and go over what is said in it with you....lots of good info....



Six Harmonies come (obviously) from Xingyi. It really came into it's own in the 18th century when Dai Long bang (of Dai family xingyiquan) wrote “The Six Harmonies Fists.” But by the 18th century, Taijiquan had already developed a rich theory and practice apart from the Dai family and Xingyiquan.

Taijiquan theory is different, although similar. It does not follow the three internal or external harmonies in the way they are presented in Dai's book. Hearing "six harmonies", I begin to wonder how and why this information found it's way into a Taijiquan school and why the original Taijiquan methods aren't being taught there instead. I may be wrong (don't know -- you didn't answer any of my questions) but this seems to gel with the ideas brought down by Wang Xiangzhai's students that empty force comes out of specialized Xingyiquan training. Even people who have studied both will explain Taijiquan using a completely different set of words and never mention six harmonies. Feng Zhiquang is a great example. Previously to creating a new form and adding six harmonies to Taijiquan he was very clear on how Taiji was practiced apart from the six harmonies.

Before I address some of your points check out the link https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/ we can talk about what is posted in the link regarding this. It directly address the questions you asked.


I'm excited to see if this is true or not. I have recently come into materials which discuss how empty force is trained. I'd like to give you a bit more time to post how precisely you work on empty force skills. You say it arises naturally. If that is true then at what point do you use intention to execute a technique via empty force? Surely if it was anything at all there would be some way of exercising it or practicing it.

So strange,,,I keep saying its part of a process you and some others keep insisting that its a special skill set.
"first in mind" often repeated among those who practice taiji....Think about why this is said...

check out the link.