Empty Force Challenge

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Appledog on Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:44 pm

johnwang wrote:Never heard about Li Jinglin, Yang Chen-Fu, or Chen guys like Chen Xiaowang ever mentioned about empty force. Which hole did those empty force masters crawl out of?


I wouldn't be so cruel as to call them holes. This is such a difficult thing to talk about because people always seem to mis-apply the credit for the time and energy they have poured into their kungfu as some kind of justification that their lineage is complete, authentic, correct, etc. So I don't think you can really talk about the whys behind this without hurting people's feelings.

Ultimately however, empty force arises out of certain mistakes and omissions and incomplete transmissions in Tai Chi. It is all about practicing the long form correctly. There is always a 'why' or a reason for everything in the form. If you do not know the 'why' for a certain move -- such as, the angle of the hand, the angle of the back foot, whether a hand should be facing in or out, etc. then it is already a mistake, a gap in the transmission. I'll try and stop there and if anyone has any questions I'll go further.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:52 pm

Here's the thing. If you can't do something, you can't say you understand it; and, if you don't understand it, you can't explain it. The problem with this debate is that few of the people who argue for the existence of "empty force" (whatever they mean by it) say that they actually possess it. If they did, they'd collect John's $10K reward. It'd be the same as if I said I could do one finger push ups, and someone called me on it. But, we only discuss whether someone else (on video or in the past) can or has demonstrated empty force.

Sure, I'll bet almost everyone wh's been around long enough has seen or felt extraordinary things. My point has nothing to do with whether or not anyone's experience is legit. I'm just saying that only those who are willing to demonstrate should be arguing. Otherwise, the effort is wasted.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:11 pm

Steve James wrote:Here's the thing. If you can't do something, you can't say you understand it; and, if you don't understand it, you can't explain it. The problem with this debate is that few of the people who argue for the existence of "empty force" (whatever they mean by it) say that they actually possess it. If they did, they'd collect John's $10K reward. It'd be the same as if I said I could do one finger push ups, and someone called me on it. But, we only discuss whether someone else (on video or in the past) can or has demonstrated empty force.

Sure, I'll bet almost everyone wh's been around long enough has seen or felt extraordinary things. My point has nothing to do with whether or not anyone's experience is legit. I'm just saying that only those who are willing to demonstrate should be arguing. Otherwise, the effort is wasted.


You didn't mention the redefining that often goes on by those seeking to discredit a practice that they really dont know much if anything about and are
unwilling to even address the theory by which it could, should, would work by...

The part I often find odd is that they selectively acknowledge the parts of it that they feel they use and understand .

Qi for example that most would say they know, understand and can use...As of yet unproven in the scientific community
Yet it's accepted within a certain context, which this aspect for them is not included in, making it not real....or not understandable

That depends on something as of yet un proven. "qi" for it to work. :-\

That is until the experience becomes common enough that it can be "safely" discussed with out the rankor that always seems
to follow these types of discussions. Aiki, being a good example of something that seems to be acknowledged safe to talk about.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:47 pm

It's worth even less effort to talk about those who don't acknowledge or believe in empty force than to argue with those who do. Showing a video of what someone else does or has done to them never proves anything.

I can't speak for aiki, but all I said was that people who claim to have it argue for it.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Appledog on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:51 pm

windwalker wrote:
Steve James wrote:Sure, I'll bet almost everyone wh's been around long enough has seen or felt extraordinary things. My point has nothing to do with whether or not anyone's experience is legit. I'm just saying that only those who are willing to demonstrate should be arguing. Otherwise, the effort is wasted.


You didn't mention the redefining that often goes on by those seeking to discredit a practice that they really dont know much if anything about and are
unwilling to even address the theory by which it could, should, would work by...

Qi for example that most would say they know, understand and can use...As of yet unproven in the scientific community
Yet it's accepted within a certain context, which this aspect for them is not included in, making it not real....or not understandable


No one would say that xue qi, or qi xi, does not exist. So the fact that "qi" as you put it isn't accepted by the scientific community is at once false and misleading. We need to set limits on this discussion because it is being pulled in many different ways. In this case you've been asked a couple of times now to discuss the theory by which it could, should, would work by. I think that would be a great place to start.

windwalker wrote:That is until the experience becomes common enough that it can be "safely" discussed with out the rankor that always seems
to follow these types of discussions. Aiki, being a good example of something that seems to be acknowledged safe to talk about.


But it is understandable. This isn't a bruce lee movie in the 70s telling us to be like water. We've had at least two generations of what would amount to be 'western masters' or, native english speaking people who have all of the relevant information. The phase we are in now is arriving at a proper terminology for these things. Party line is to just use the original Chinese terms. Then there are those who prefer coming up with alternate models and terminology which seem to work. Nothing wrong with that so long as you are capable of translating between the two. Ground path being an example of alternate model and terminology that seems to work.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:55 pm

Steve James wrote:It's worth even less effort to talk about those who don't acknowledge or believe in empty force than to argue with those who do. Showing a video of what someone else does or has done to them never proves anything.

I can't speak for aiki, but all I said was that people who claim to have it argue for it.



Agree

For me it's one aspect of a larger process. For those I work with they feel this process directly.

it becomes more understandable as they find themselves able to demo what is often shown in the clips according to their level. It becomes more clear but maybe still not accepted even if they can do some of it.

It is odd and that there is a period of time were people react to things not understanding why.

When others start to react to what they do they often feel the same reactions are faked.

until they come to a clearer understanding by which reactions are caused by.

There is a healthy skepticism by most people involved in this work that often drives them to seek a deeper understanding by which process is said to work and they react to.


It starts with understanding how not to use force
and what it means to fan song.

Something that starts from day one.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:45 pm

Steve James wrote:If you can't do something, you can't say you understand it; ...

Agree with you 100% there. If someone says that he can do empty force, he should put up a clip to prove it.

I have said that I like to coordinate my hand with my foot. When my foot stop, my hand stop (not keep moving). Here is a clip to prove it.

I try to coordinate my

- left downward parry, right comb hair with my right foot landing.
- left arm wrap, right head lock with my left foot landing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfR-yJL ... e=youtu.be
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:38 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:If you can't do something, you can't say you understand it; ...

Agree with you 100% there. If someone says that he can do empty force, he should put up a clip to prove it.

I have said that I like to coordinate my hand with my foot. When my foot stop, my hand stop (not keep moving). Here is a clip to prove it.

Is it about them or it, not everyone is at the same level of the some of the more public masters...Why do many post clips of pro fighters commenting on what they do and not of themselves. Even posting clips of masters who demo, with commentary in chinese explaining it, some have problems with the concept of it

As to my self I am known in the community i move in. Acknowledged for my own small skill in something that I am still very much working on. I've been invited to give and help with others events in the Chinese community demoing this aspect. Among the Chinese teachers there many of them either know me or of me...nothing to prove or disprove here.

I've always said and maintain whether touched or not the process by which it works in s the same. Most feel this aspect at first touch..


I try to coordinate my

- left downward parry, right comb hair with my right foot landing.
- left arm wrap, right head lock with my left foot landing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfR-yJL ... e=youtu.be


showing things that are not in question and can be understood by those trying it out...not exactly the same with other demos shown in the clips of masters posted were the how, why or what is not clear.

Are there many people who can not do what they say,,,sure in all fields this is true...

One of my classmates in Beijing makes a practice of visiting masters trying their hand to see if what they say is true or not.
In the bay area he had attracted a following. An article that some one did on him in the US http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/sanfr ... OSHUN.html

funny he sounds just like you regarding our teacher

Here is Zhao’s secret, in his own words: I didn’t copy my teacher. I stole his ideas. As a painter, this remark really struck a chord. Picasso said it too. Good artists copy …. great artists steal.


At a local push hands park, he threw some one down
Saying in Chinese " who is your teacher, your teacher didn't teach you shit"
for those understanding what he said it made them laugh, for the one thrown down
it pissed him off...

He is in Beijing at this time and would welcome anyone wanting to train under him or find out more about his art.

The aspect of kong jin, is only one aspect that is part of a much larger process that tends to illicit the most comments and is often taken out of context in some of the demos presented. Just as push hands is often used to demo taiji, so much so, that some conflate push hands with how taiji would and could be used but never seems to be. In public.... An interesting point about what is called kong jin, is the why or how would it have come about about remembering that touched or not the how it works is the same.

At what point was this reaction noted and why would some find it useful. In another thread about timing, touches on some of the answers.
OODA loop. a good starting point for understanding the process...

The recent challenge and loss in China with the mma guy and CMA guys, a wake up call....good for the CMA arts
good to help people make a distinction.. about what, why and how they are learning something.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:17 pm

windwalker wrote:Are there many people who can not do what they say,,,sure in all fields this is true...

IMO, it's better to talk about what you can do and not talk about what you can't do. If I can only use my head lock to crash a small watermelon (a bit harder than a big watermelon), I will not say that I can use my head lock to crash a coconut.

If you can't prove what you have said, you will lose your credit forever.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:01 pm

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Are there many people who can not do what they say,,,sure in all fields this is true...

IMO, it's better to talk about what you can do and not talk about what you can't do. If I can only use my head lock to crash a small watermelon (a bit harder than a big watermelon), I will not say that I can use my head lock to crash a coconut.

If you can't prove what you have said, you will lose your credit forever.



Totally agree, most of my life reflects this.

I have said whether touched or not the process is the same,,,

Those that have met with me, have felt what I talk about.

All that is shown in the clips are demos helping to explain a theory.
It's up to one self find out whether a theory is true or not for them.

CMA in general has not been proven as practiced in a modern sport event.

Based on this should one conclude that it doesn't work, and never did.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby klonk on Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:04 pm

Let's be smart about this, guys. It's a thousand bucks to learn the headlock sequences Wang used to win several championships. Full speed application! Pretend to be a lin kong jin master and get a bargain.

(Thank me later, JW.) :D
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:13 am

windwalker wrote:One of my classmates in Beijing makes a practice of visiting masters trying their hand to see if what they say is true or not.
In the bay area he had attracted a following. At a local push hands park, he threw some one down
Saying in Chinese " who is your teacher, your teacher didn't teach you shit"
for those understanding what he said it made them laugh, for the one thrown down
it pissed him off...

He is in Beijing at this time and would welcome anyone wanting to train under him or find out more about his art.
.

You and your classmate both studied empty-force with your teacher ? Is your friend using EF against push-hand practitioners or PH against PH practitioners ? If he is not using EF, why?
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:33 am

Trick wrote:You and your classmate both studied empty-force with your teacher ? Is your friend using EF against push-hand practitioners or PH against PH practitioners ? If he is not using EF, why?



Studied sounds very strange.

You seem to have missed the point somewhere.

I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same. It's part of a skill set of a much larger process.

It's not whether one uses it or not it's just part of what one does among other skills. A understanding of what not using force means and why it's different from using what's called force.
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:22 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:You and your classmate both studied empty-force with your teacher ? Is your friend using EF against push-hand practitioners or PH against PH practitioners ? If he is not using EF, why?



Studied sounds very strange.

You seem to have missed the point somewhere.

I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same. It's part of a skill set of a much larger process.

It's not whether one uses it or not it's just part of what one does among other skills. A understanding of what not using force means and why it's different from using what's called force.

Ok, so empty force is an byproduct kind of that just seem to happen sometimes, not something you specifically study to gain?.....But then how come some “masters” happily demonstrating this EF over and over on devoted students, aren’t these students there to study and hopefully masters this unique “power”?
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Re: Empty Force Challenge

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:01 am

Trick wrote:
Ok, so empty force is an byproduct kind of that just seem to happen sometimes, not something you specifically study to gain?



I would have to say it depends on the linage and teachers skill set as to the what, how and why some thing is taught or not. For my teacher everything he did whether touched or not contained the skill set. The levels as they develop are, skin, hair, and air all refering to the correct touch at the point of contact.

One soon learns what happens when force is used or not used either way is bad, as there is another agent at work....something very apparent after one is tossed a couple of times.

The link has a little of his bio and my own story of how we met.

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/01/ ... yongliang/


.....But then how come some “masters” happily demonstrating this EF over and over on devoted students, aren’t these students there to study and hopefully masters this unique “power”?
[/quote]

donno, something you'd have to ask them about....

My own findings in this area are pretty much done. Now reintegrating the process part and insights into my own practice.
I call

“Tsang-Lu” 蒼 鷺


Describes a method developed from the basic practices of hop gar, and taiji,
forming what I feel is a unique approach embodying aspects of both.

A practice based on developing an understanding of
“moving with awareness”

what this means, the practice, functional usage.
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