Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anti-striking

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:10 pm

johnwang wrote:Here is a simple sparring rule:

- If you can punch on my head, you win that round.
- If I can get you into a clinch (either double under hooks, or double over hooks, or head lock), I win that round.

Test for 15 rounds (either you punch my head first, or I get you in clinch first) and whoever wins more that 7 rounds will be the winner that day.

In other words, my sparring partner can do anything that he wants on me. He doesn't have to worry about my kick, my punch, even my throw. He only have to stop me from doing a clinch. It can be a very civilized sparring.

Through the sparring process, I try to prove whether "anti-striking" is possible or not. I'll need a huge amount of data in order to prove it or dis-prove it.

What's your opinion on this?



IMO, this is fine for grappler who wish to learn how to apply their arts against strikers.

However, from the perspective of TCMA, I feel that this type of training -- if done too much -- may prevent people from developing TCMA's distinctive fighting style in which the boundary between grappling and striking is often blurred.

In TCMA, a strike is often a grappling technique, and a grappling technique often contains elements of striking.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:42 pm

It sounds great and fun, but there is already a large dataset in mma that you may prefer to look at (for general trends, not for your individual preferences).

Generally speaking, the last time I looked, there were more striking wins, and more KOs and TKOs (especially at higher weights). If we look at specific examples, like Holm v Rousey, the striker's game is essentially jab-cross, and run away from closing, and have some fast clinch escapes. They (as a class of fighter) are getting better and better at that. It used to be that bjj ruled, then after ground and pound came about, wrestlers ruled. That doesn't seem to be the case now. We already have had many, many world class grapplers in mma since grappling sports have many more opportunities for very high level competition (Olympians, NCAA Div 1, Judo, BJJ, sambo national champs, etc.), but fewer really world class strikers (Mayweather, Jr. vs. McGregor shows the difference in pure boxing ability as one example), but that should change over time as everyone gets better and better.

But personally I really like this idea and the rhino guard idea. Would love to work on this.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:45 pm

johnwang wrote:1. extend my arms in front of your face. This not only can block your vision, it also squeeze your space.
2. put my arms in your striking path. When you punch, you fists have to deal with my arms first before it can reach to my face.
3. hide my head behind my arms and between my shoulders.

My "rhino guard" can help me to achieve that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:before the arm is retracted?

This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed.

Both videos you posted are demonstrations where "opponent tries to punch" without retracting. Watch the feeder, not the demonstrator.

Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC?

There should not be any difference I assume. Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZaAflG ... e=youtu.be

In your video, Bas demonstrated where the feeder is in grappling range and does not retract his punch. As mentioned, "Getting under hooks is common in the UFC. Some get standing guillotine. Most fighters get under hooks, when they clinch."

Here in a more recent, "serious," normal speed video, Bas Rutten defends against right straights that are retracted, from punching range. He does not teach the "arm wrap" in the "small window."

OfficialBasRutten
Published on Apr 2, 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1QKpq4Gf3U

johnwang wrote:
bartekb wrote:In my opinion if the striker is skilled and the shot does not have to knock a person out - just connect - so it can even be a light jab - the result would be - grappler will loose 99 / 100.


It's not that easy to punch on your opponent's head when he uses "rhino guard".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3rBxP ... e=youtu.be

At :03, :07, :09, :11, :24 and :27, it is easy to punch on Ronda's (olympic judo medalist) head when she tries to block Nunes' punch and grab Nunes' head with an extended arm. (There is no single leg or double legs by Ronda. She tries to get head lock by extending arm. You might add this to your data collection.):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7bGvi7-Db4

Image
Image
Image

"What's your answer/opinion on this?"
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:51 pm

C.J.W. wrote:However, from the perspective of TCMA, I feel that this type of training -- if done too much -- may prevent people from developing TCMA's distinctive fighting style in which the boundary between grappling and striking is often blurred.

In TCMA, a strike is often a grappling technique, and a grappling technique often contains elements of striking.

This training is not for general CMA guys. It's for wrestler who wants to fight against a boxer but doesn't want to spend time to train the striking art.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:14 pm

marvin8 wrote:Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

I don't have such clip at this moment. But I promise that I'll put one up the moment that I can get one. The clip will be very simple. The moment that you punch me, I'll try to use the Chinese zombie guard to move in.

- My left arm will try to go through between your right arm and your head.
- My right arm will try to go through between your head and your left arm.

At that moment, either you knock me down, or I get you in a head lock. In other words, the moment that you punch me, the moment that I'll move into you.

You try to kick, punch, elbow, and knee on me. I only try to do 1 thing and that's "head lock". My job is much simpler that yours.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:20 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

I don't have such clip at this moment. But I promise that I'll put one up the moment that I can get one. The clip will be very simple. The moment that you punch me, I'll try to use the Chinese zombie guard to move in.

- My left arm will try to go through between your right arm and your head.
- My right arm will try to go through between your head and your left arm.

At that moment, either you knock me down, or I get you in a head lock. In other words, the moment that you punch me, the moment that I'll move into you.

You try to kick, punch, elbow, and knee on me. I only try to do 1 thing and that's "head lock". My job is much simpler that yours.

Okay. I am only asking to see a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with a feeder moving, punching at normal speed and retracting the punch.

The feedee (you) will make contact at the same punching range as in the "Rhino Guard" video, then wrap the retracted right jab or straight right, depending if the feeder is orthodox or southpaw. Most punchers will be orthodox: throwing a straight right.

Be careful! I wouldn't want you to end up like Ronda.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 pm

marvin8 wrote:punching at normal speed and retracting the punch ...

If your opponent's left arm can extend and pass beyond your right shoulder and your head, your right punch retraction will not be helpful. Can he succeed every time? I don't have the succeed/failure ration yet.

Just like when you try to punch your opponent, your opponent tries to hold your head and kiss you. Can that be done? Of course it will require a lot of training.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:27 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:punching at normal speed and retracting the punch ...

If your opponent's left arm can extend and pass beyond your right shoulder and your head, your right punch retraction will not be helpful. Can he succeed every time? Of course it can be hard.

The opponent contacts a body part (e.g., chin or face), then retracts the punch (normally within a second). A skilled fighter is defensively responsible, even during offense. It's up to the grappler to enter clinching range by slipping the punch, grab the head, wrap the arm and throw (e.g., within a second).

johnwang wrote:Just like when you try to punch your opponent, your opponent tries to hold your head and kiss you. Can that be done? Of course it will require a lot of training.

Image

No. Your opponent cannot "hold your head and kiss you" from punching range. That takes clinching range. Puncher does not need to enter the clinching range.

The Rousey vs Nunes' video and three clips posted are examples of attempting to extend an arm, block, head lock and throw in a real fight. Ronda was able to touch Nunes' neck. However, Ronda could not "arm wrap" punches and take control, even after six attempts within 30 seconds.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:26 am

marvin8 wrote:The opponent contacts a body part (e.g., chin or face), then retracts the punch (normally within a second).

Assuming we are still discussing the "rhino guard". How can you be able to punch your opponent's face/head if his head is hidden behind his rhino guard.

The beauty of the rhino guard is, it prevents you from using jab and cross. When you use uppercut and hook, not only your head will be exposed, your hook or uppercut will be too short to reach to his head/chin (because you have to bend your arm, but your opponent's arms are fully extended).

I'm a much better striker than all my students are. Without destroying my student's rhino guard, I can't hit their face/head within the initial 20 punches. The issue is when I try to destroy my opponent's rhino guard, our arms start to tangle. The striking game stops right there and the grappling game starts.

marvin8 wrote:No. Your opponent cannot "hold your head and kiss you" from punching range. That takes clinching range. Puncher does not need to enter the clinching range.

When you move into punching range and punch your opponent, your opponent will need to move in too and change that punching range into clinching range.

1 - 1 = 0 (kicking range - you move in, your opponent moves back).
1 + 0 = 1 (punching range - you move in, your opponent stands still).
1 + 1 = 2 (clinching range - you move in, your opponent moves in too).
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby origami_itto on Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:49 am

So with this rhino gaurd, what's to stop the opponent from bridging it? Couldn't they simply move it out of the way with one hand and attack you with the other? Something similar to a fair Lady works at shuttles or something
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:34 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The opponent contacts a body part (e.g., chin or face), then retracts the punch (normally within a second).

Assuming we are still discussing the "rhino guard". How can you be able to punch your opponent's face/head if his head is hidden behind his rhino guard.

The beauty of the rhino guard is, it prevents you from using jab and cross. When you use uppercut and hook, not only your head will be exposed, your hook or uppercut will be too short to reach to his head/chin (because you have to bend your arm, but your opponent's arms are fully extended).

I'm a much better striker than all my students are. Without destroying my student's rhino guard, I can't hit their face/head within the initial 20 punches. The issue is when I try to destroy my opponent's rhino guard, our arms start to tangle. The Rhino Guard shortens your range by joining the two hands. The striking game stops right there and the grappling game starts.

Generally, punches should be in combination: a setup then a power punch(s).

One of many ways is to push the Rhino Guard down while maintaining distance (outside clinch range), then follow with an angled punch. Many CMAist lost to MMAist trying to "tangle" or bridge, not having weapons for outside of that range. See posted Rousey vs Nunes video and clips.

George Foreman attempts pushing opponent's lead guard hand down (an) from outside of punching range following with an uppercut. Then later, finishes with an angled uppercut:
Image

But, at an angle with timing (within 1 second):
Image

There are multiple ways to get one using a Rhino Guard double weighted (out of position). The Rhino Guard shortens your reach, while the opponent can control and finish with potshots from a distance (outside clinch range) with one extended long arm punch. See posted Rousey vs Nunes video and clips.

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:No. Your opponent cannot "hold your head and kiss you" from punching range. That takes clinching range. Puncher does not need to enter the clinching range.

When you move into punching range and punch your opponent, your opponent will need to move in too and change that punching range into clinching range.

1 - 1 = 0 (kicking range - you move in, your opponent moves back).
1 + 0 = 1 (punching range - you move in, your opponent stands still).
1 + 1 = 2 (clinching range - you move in, your opponent moves in too).


Punching range — Puncher punches at grappler all day without consequence by maintaining punching range = winning. Grappler cannot grab puncher's out of range neck. It is important to understand distance and have weapons for all ranges. The strict grappler only has one range.

By your definition, the theory of the Rhino Guard is moot if one cannot "arm wrap" a real, retracted jab, straight, uppercut, etc.

Edit — Compare Ronda's squared shoulders vs Nunes' rotated hips and shoulders. Ronda's squared shoulders prevent her from reaching Nunes' neck, while Nunes' punches are landing:

Image
Image
Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:18 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So with this rhino gaurd, what's to stop the opponent from bridging it? Couldn't they simply move it out of the way with one hand and attack you with the other? Something similar to a fair Lady works at shuttles or something

If you and your opponent are on the same level, his 2 enforced arms will be stronger than your single arm. When you use one hand to push his rhino guard, that's the time his rhino guard will be separated and become 2 independent arms. The grappling game will start.

Try to hold a rhino guard (with Taiji Peng Jin) and ask your opponent to

- push on it. Can his push destroy your rhino guard?
- push on it with one hand and then punch you with another hand. Can his punch land on your head?

I would love to hear your personal experience from this 2 simple tests. What's your succeed/failure ratio on these 2 tests?
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:27 pm

johnwang wrote:
I would love to hear your personal experience from this 2 simple tests. What's your succeed/failure ratio on these 2 tests?



My own experience with boxer type stylist using long arm was that the guard itself became the target. A few well-placed shots and they would drop their guard allowing one to move in.

Do you or the people you train do any type of arm conditioning to reinforce the arms from Impact.

I've found specialty hands like burning palm are also effective against guards as described.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10548
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:37 pm

windwalker wrote:My own experience with boxer type stylist using long arm was that the guard itself became the target. A few well-placed shots and they would drop their guard allowing one to move in.

Do you or the people you train do any type of arm conditioning to reinforce the arms from Impact.

I've found specialty hands like burning palm are also effective against guards as described.

3 stars is our required daily training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3koqnBa ... e=youtu.be

When we talk about Taiji Peng Jin, everybody will believe that it can be so powerful to bounce opponent back. When we talk about rhino guard, we assume that person has no Peng Jin in his rhino guard. When you use Taiji Ji, you will put your left hand on your right wrist. Your structure is similar to the rhino guard structure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J8HjF3 ... e=youtu.be

Outside with tough arm muscle, bone, and skin, also inside with strong Peng Jin, the rhino guard is very hard to destroy.

I'm going to add one more test.

If you can destroy my rhino guard within 20 tries, you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:44 am

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:I'm only interested in the data for double under hooks, double over hooks, and head lock. In other words, what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm.

Getting under hooks is common in the UFC. Some get standing guillotine. Most fighters get under hooks, when they clinch. A recent match was olympic gold medalist judoka Kayla Harrison vs Brittney Elkin PFL2 on June 21, 2018. Kayla used under hooks and no single leg or double legs. Most judoka in the UFC do not use single leg or double legs, as they are illegal by the IJF.

Grapplers in the UFC also face the problem: can they still clinch "when someone tries to knock their head off." What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC? If the problem is the same, you might use some of their strategies and tactics.

Is your question, what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm, before the arm is retracted?
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:before the arm is retracted?

This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed.

marvin8 wrote:What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC?

There should not be any difference I assume. Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously.

marvin8 wrote:Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA

You asked, "what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm?" You stated, "This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed." Then, you said, "Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously." and included Bas doing an arm wrap.

Then I said, "I am only asking to see a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with a feeder moving, punching at normal speed and retracting the punch."

But now, you promise to put up a clip on "Chinese zombie guard" with no mention of "arm wrap."

Then you said:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The opponent contacts a body part (e.g., chin or face), then retracts the punch (normally within a second).

Assuming we are still discussing the "rhino guard". How can you be able to punch your opponent's face/head if his head is hidden behind his rhino guard.

The beauty of the rhino guard is, it prevents you from using jab and cross. When you use uppercut and hook, not only your head will be exposed, your hook or uppercut will be too short to reach to his head/chin (because you have to bend your arm, but your opponent's arms are fully extended).

I'm a much better striker than all my students are. Without destroying my student's rhino guard, I can't hit their face/head within the initial 20 punches. The issue is when I try to destroy my opponent's rhino guard, our arms start to tangle. The striking game stops right there and the grappling game starts.
johnwang wrote:When we talk about rhino guard, we assume that person has no Peng Jin in his rhino guard. When you use Taiji Ji, you will put your left hand on your right wrist. Your structure is similar to the rhino guard structure….

Outside with tough arm muscle, bone, and skin, also inside with strong Peng Jin, the rhino guard is very hard to destroy.

I'm going to add one more test.

If you can destroy my rhino guard within 20 tries, you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.

To clarify, are you promising to post a Rhino Guard video with you demonstrating "arm wrap" before the arm is retracted with a feeder moving and punching at normal speed? Or only "Chinese zombie guard" with no "arm wrap?"

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

I don't have such clip at this moment. But I promise that I'll put one up the moment that I can get one. The clip will be very simple. The moment that you punch me, I'll try to use the Chinese zombie guard to move in.

- My left arm will try to go through between your right arm and your head.
- My right arm will try to go through between your head and your left arm.

At that moment, either you knock me down, or I get you in a head lock. In other words, the moment that you punch me, the moment that I'll move into you.

You try to kick, punch, elbow, and knee on me. I only try to do 1 thing and that's "head lock". My job is much simpler that yours.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: twocircles13 and 37 guests