Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:37 pm

oragami_itto wrote:The only part of the rhino guard I really disagree with is the hand clasping, it seems like that would slow down the transition from guard to grappling or clinch or whatever. I don't think that it adds enough to be worth it

I have tried different methods.

1. fingers locked.
2. tiger mouth hold thumb.
3. fist touch fist.
4. wrist touching.
5. ...

1 is still the strongest. The main purpose of 1 is to give beginners confidence. When they feel that their double arms is stronger than their opponent's single arm, they can be more relax and that will make the outcome to be in their favor.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:53 pm

marvin8 wrote:Your definition of rhino guard is undebatable. If you can arm wrap a punch before it retracts, it is ideal.

The entire Taiji principle "If you move, I'll move before you do." is ideal. My requirement is much less. If you move, I'll move at the same time (not before you do).

Many years ago, a friend of mine said, "If I keep moving back, your head lock will never be able to get me." His comment had bothered me for many years. I then found 2 solutions.

1. Add a hook on my opponent's body (only sticky is not good enough). When he moves back, his body will pull me into him.
2. When my opponent moves in, I move in too.

Since that day, the "head on collusion" became a very important part of my daily training.

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Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:41 am

July 7, 2018: Stipe Miocic vs. Daniel Cormier

Daniel enters with a left jab, turning it into a headlock and gives Stipe the underhook. Then, Daniel turns the headlock into a left underhook and finishes Stipe with a short right hook at 4:33 of the second round.

After a brief pause to the action due to an accidental eye poke, both pugilists met in the center of the Octagon. With 30-seconds left, Cormier tagged Miocic before dropping him a devastating right hook to the jaw:

https://i.imgur.com/7Kp7RJU.mp4

Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:25 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:That's why I asked if you had any Rhino Guard video showing retraction of a normal speed punch for clarification.

If you wait for your opponent's punch to retract, your timing is off. When A punches B and B moves in. If B can kiss A, it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not.

Moving into clinch range or "kiss" is typical. There is no discussion there.

I do not understand this part, "it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not," when speaking of rhino guard. Because, your rhino guard definition includes arm wrap before the punch is retracted. Does arm wrap before retraction of the punch "matter" in the definition of rhino guard or not?

Your "Rhino Guard - Head lock" video demonstrates "arm wrap" before the arm is retracted. The Bas bar clip you posted also shows "arm wrap" before the arm is retracted.

The ram and car images do not include "arm wrap:"
Image

The long guard to clinch without "arm wrap" is typical and there is plenty of data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJoHXibqAts
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:38 am

If both of your arms can pass beyond your opponent's head, you can always wrap your opponent's upper arm (or over hook his shoulder) even if he may retract his punch.

The arm wrap is to control your opponent's leading arm. I don't like MT clinch. It still gives opponent 2 free arms. In Chinese wrestling, the leading arm wrapping is very important.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:49 am

johnwang wrote:If both of your arms can pass beyond your opponent's head, you can always wrap your opponent's upper arm (or over hook his shoulder) even if he may retract his punch.

The arm wrap is to control your opponent's leading arm. I don't like MT clinch. It still gives opponent 2 free arms. In Chinese wrestling, the leading arm wrapping is very important.

Again, "moving into clinch range or "kiss" is typical. There is no discussion there."

Can you answer and clarify rhino guard here?:
marvin8 wrote:I do not understand this part, "it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not," when speaking of rhino guard. Because, your rhino guard definition includes arm wrap before the punch is retracted. Does arm wrap before retraction of the punch "matter" in the definition of rhino guard or not?
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:05 am

Let me define the term "arm wrap". An "arm wrap" is to move your hand toward your opponent's shoulder. You then put his arm under your arm with your palm control under his under arm and your shoulder control his wrist area. So when you wrap your opponent's arm, you are not aiming his arm. You are aiming his shoulder. You then slide your hand back along his upper arm. This will pull your opponent toward you.

If A's arms can pass B's head, A can wrap B's arm even if B may retract his punch.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:08 am

johnwang wrote:Let me define the term "arm wrap". An "arm wrap" is to move your hand toward your opponent's shoulder. You then put his arm under your arm with your palm control under his under arm and your shoulder control his wrist area. So when you wrap your opponent's arm, you are not aiming his arm. You are aiming his shoulder.

If A's arms can pass B's head, A can wrap B's arm even if B may retract his punch.

Image

I am not asking to define "arm wrap." I am asking to clarify definition of "rhino guard."
marvin8 wrote:Again, "moving into clinch range or "kiss" is typical. There is no discussion there."

Can you answer and clarify rhino guard here?:
marvin8 wrote:I do not understand this part, "it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not," when speaking of rhino guard. Because, your rhino guard definition includes arm wrap before the punch is retracted. Does arm wrap before retraction of the punch "matter" in the definition of rhino guard or not?
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:00 am

I don't know how to answer your question in more detail. Let me repeat it just one more time here.

If A's arms can pass B's head, A can wrap B's arm even if B may retract his punch.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:15 am

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Let me define the term "arm wrap". An "arm wrap" is to move your hand toward your opponent's shoulder. You then put his arm under your arm with your palm control under his under arm and your shoulder control his wrist area. So when you wrap your opponent's arm, you are not aiming his arm. You are aiming his shoulder.

If A's arms can pass B's head, A can wrap B's arm even if B may retract his punch.


https://s33.postimg.cc/ywjyyl3lr/rhino_guard.jpg

johnwang wrote:I don't know how to answer your question in more detail. Let me repeat it just one more time here.

This matches your description above. Head and arm are both controlled as you described. This is also typical. Is this part of "rhino guard?

It makes it more simple and clear if you answer yes or no to the questions, first. Then, you can explain if you want.

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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:17 am

The head lock is the goal. The rhino guard is one path that can help you to get there. It's not the only path.

You can achieved head lock by

1. rhino guard,
2. zombie guard,
3. double spears,
4. octopus arms,
5. separate hands,
6. ...

What's the advantage of the head lock? The neck is one of the weak area in human body. When the head go, the body will follow.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 am

Again, it's not necessary to explain the typical clinch entry, headlock and arm control, which I have posted. I have specifically asked about rhino guard as you have defined in the past.

Are you willing to please answer yes or no to the two questions I have asked? There is no right or wrong answer, either yes or no. It just helps understand your term rhino guard.

marvin8 wrote:I do not understand this part, "it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not," when speaking of rhino guard. Because, your rhino guard definition includes arm wrap before the punch is retracted. Does arm wrap before retraction of the punch "matter" in the definition of rhino guard or not?

marvin8 wrote:This matches your description above. Head and arm are both controlled as you described. This is also typical. Is this part of "rhino guard?

It makes it more simple and clear if you answer yes or no to the questions, first. Then, you can explain if you want.

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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:28 pm

Q: Does arm wrap before retraction of the punch "matter" in the definition of rhino guard or not?

A: No!

Q: Is this part of "rhino guard?

A: No!
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:32 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I think that's essentially the same as the zombie guard

Agree! You use

- rhino guard to invite your opponent's arms to punch outside of your arms
, you then push his arms up and enter in between.
- Chinese zombie guard to invite your opponent's arms to punch between your arms, you then push his arm down and enter above.

By using either guard, you try to restrict 1/2 you your opponent's striking function.

Thanks.

You "agree" that Daniel is using rhino guard here, correct?

https://i.imgur.com/7Kp7RJU.mp4

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Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:05 pm

who is Cormier? Also, is that a slow motion gif, or are they just super tired?
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