Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:44 pm

marvin8 wrote:I am only asking to see a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with a feeder moving, punching at normal speed and retracting the punch...

What speed is "normal" speed?

- committed punch?
- fake punch?

A committed punch is different from a fake punch. You can't pull back your committed punch that fast. When you throw a fake punch, your body is not moving forward. When you throw a committed punch, your body will move forward.

At this moment, I only have training clip. I don't have fighting clip. I'm afraid no matter what training clip that I may put up, you may always say, that guy didn't punch and pull back fast enough.

Is this "normal" speed to you? Does he pull back his punch fast enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3rBxP ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:09 pm

Super hypothetically, what happens if someone attacks the rhino guard with one hand to punch with the other hand? Is that a chance to arm wrap?
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:35 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I am only asking to see a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with a feeder moving, punching at normal speed and retracting the punch...

What speed is "normal" speed?

- committed punch?
- fake punch?

A committed punch is different from a fake punch. You can't pull back your committed punch that fast. When you throw a fake punch, your body is not moving forward. When you throw a committed punch, your body will move forward.

At this moment, I only have training clip. I don't have fighting clip. I'm afraid no matter what training clip that I may put up, you may always say, that guy didn't punch and pull back fast enough.

Is this "normal" speed to you? Does he pull back his punch fast enough?


I am not asking for a "fighting clip." It can be a demo or training clip, just more realistic with retraction of the punch.

Yes. These feeder punches and pull backs are "fast enough/at normal speed." For example the first punch, the left jab, is at normal speed.

Simply replace the speed of the right jab in the "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with the speed of that first left jab and pull back in "rhino 2. (The right jab is not retracted here):

https://www.youtube.com/Bawatch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA

Adding movement makes it a little more realistic, as in this Bas video @ 1:01:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1QKpq4Gf3U
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:35 pm

everything wrote:Super hypothetically, what happens if someone attacks the rhino guard with one hand to punch with the other hand? Is that a chance to arm wrap?

The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:32 pm

marvin8 wrote:I am not asking for a "fighting clip." It can be a demo or training clip, just more realistic with retraction of the punch.

The term "more realistic" is a relative term. It's not an absolute term. As I have said, if you throw a committed punch, you cannot pull back that punch very fast.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:23 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I am not asking for a "fighting clip." It can be a demo or training clip, just more realistic with retraction of the punch.

The term "more realistic" is a relative term. It's not an absolute term. As I have said, if you throw a committed punch, you cannot pull back that punch very fast.

"More realistic" is defined/absolute in the rest of the reply that you left out. Whatever you want to call the punches in "rhino 2" (e.g., committed, etc.), they are "more realistic:"
marvin8 wrote:

I am not asking for a "fighting clip." It can be a demo or training clip, just more realistic with retraction of the punch.

Yes. These feeder punches and pull backs are "fast enough/at normal speed." For example the first punch, the left jab, is at normal speed.

Simply replace the speed of the right jab in the "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with the speed of that first left jab and pull back in "rhino 2. (The right jab is not retracted here):
https://www.youtube.com/Bawatch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA


Here are committed punches that took less than a second, from this thread:
Image
Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7bGvi7-Db4
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:06 am

johnwang wrote:You talk about fast, explosive, good timing, and moving skills. It all has to do with individual's training which is difficult to be applied for people with less MA training.

I try to use different approach which may not have anything to do with individual's MA skill/ability. I want to look at what make a punch to be effective.

1. space - you need space to generate your punching speed and power.
2. path - you need a clear path for your punch to travel.
3. target - you need a clear target to punch.

If I try not to give you 1, 2, and 3, your punch won't be effective. In order for me to do that, I need to

1. extend my arms in front of your face. This not only can block your vision, it also squeeze your space.
2. put my arms in your striking path. When you punch, you fists have to deal with my arms first before it can reach to my face.
3. hide my head behind my arms and between my shoulders.

My "rhino guard" can help me to achieve that.

When an opponent enters your side door by taking a forward side step, then uppercuts between your extended arms and clasped hands:
1. He has "space to generate his punching speed and power." Your "extended arms" will not be "in front of his face" and "block his vision."
2. He has "a clear path for his punch to travel." His fist does not “have to deal with your arms first before it can reach to your face.”
3. He has a clear target to punch. “Hiding your head behind your arms and between your shoulders,” can expose your chin and face to uppercuts, block your vision, limit your mobility, shorten your reach and create a door handle to control your center.

Your "rhino guard helps you to achieve that," by extending your arms, clasping your hands and hiding/tucking your head.

Side door concept: If you are too close to a door and and try to open it, the door will hit you in the face. Instead if you side step forward while pulling the door open, you will enter the door without getting hit. At that point, you can punch (uppercut) the door without getting hit.

Following are examples of entering the side door.

@ 4:53, Robert talks about pulling the door open to break structure. Opponent is no longer facing you. So, you are able to take advantage and control the opponent's balance and center of gravity.

chusauli
Published on Mar 19, 2014

A basic introduction to Push, Pull, and Wedge Concepts in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Kuen. This was originally featured in Masters Magazine Winter 2011 Issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Os8O1rY8o8&t=4m53s

marvin8 wrote:George Foreman attempts pushing opponent's lead guard hand down (an) from outside of punching range following with an uppercut. Then later, finishes with an angled uppercut:
Image


mongoosefightsystem
Published on May 8, 2012

"Valley Girl Boxer" explains Olympic boxing strategy at Classic kickboxing gym in Pasadena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQLfDtDhwKI

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Super hypothetically, what happens if someone attacks the rhino guard with one hand to punch with the other hand? Is that a chance to arm wrap?

The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.

If A has entered B's side door or touches from outside the grappling range, the grappling game may not start. "The moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms," A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

"What's your opinion on this?"
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:48 am

So in the simplest terms the way I learned pi chuan, you start from a cross hands position, the outside hand travels down and out and then back in, like a strike down then a pull, the inner hand follows almost immediately in a very similar Arc.

So with this rhino gaurd, when the first hand hits it, it will either knock it down, pull you down, or pull me up, all of which other a clear path to the Head for the second hand to strike.

The stronger you resist the more Force you're adding to the strike, the only real defense is to move out of the way or break the rhino gaurd to use the other hand to block. If you've already made the decision to use rhino a certain way I don't believe you could change your mind quick enough to avoid the strike from a competent player.

Imho, cross hands is superior to the rhino gaurd, offers the same benefits without the drawbacks
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:29 pm

The main purpose of the rhino guard is to help a wrestle to fight against a boxer. The moment that the rhino guard touch on the boxer's arm, the moment that rhino guard will become Chinese zombie arms. Both arms will become spears and try to separate the boxer's arms from his head. The left arm will go through between the boxer's right arm and his head. The right arm will go through the boxer's left arm and his head.

The strategy is simple. But it will require many tests.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:12 pm

I mean that's great for head on engagement but not what I'm talking about here.

So you have rhino gaurd, I have cross hands. My right arm shoots up, out, down, in, making contact with your right arm and attaching, pulling it down and towards me while the left hand follows a similar Arc to strike.

The attack comes in at an angle outside the zombie arms so they aren't relevant. The strike from the second hand would land before they even split.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby .Q. on Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:31 pm

I feel this is a really good introductory strategy for facing a striker. It's actually a good drill to get used to seeing punches and be able to do basic defense. It's basic but drastically improves your chance in a short amount of time, as opposed to to having no plans or experience. Defenses that boxers use require a lot more skill/time to train.
On the other hand once you have more experience or face better strikers, I would modify it for more flexibility. I don't really like having both of my hands almost all the way out as it limits your options and makes your frame more rigid (which has its pros and cons).
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:11 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I mean that's great for head on engagement but not what I'm talking about here.

So you have rhino gaurd, I have cross hands. My right arm shoots up, out, down, in, making contact with your right arm and attaching, pulling it down and towards me while the left hand follows a similar Arc to strike.

The attack comes in at an angle outside the zombie arms so they aren't relevant. The strike from the second hand would land before they even split.

I have difficult to picture your strategy. Could you put up a clip to explain it?

The wrestler's arms can act as 2 spears. it can also act like 2 snakes. The moment that it touches something, it will go in spiral around that arm.

This is how a wrestler uses a

- hook punch to get into under hook, or
- uppercut to get into over hook.

It's not to a boxer's advantage to play the "grip fight" game with a wrestler. How to slide arm along opponent's arm and reach to his shoulder are every wrestler's daily training.

The moment that the rhino guard and arm make contact, the moment that the rhino guard will change. How it will change will depend on opponent's intention.

It just likes the old saying, "The moment that you make a move, the moment that I'll respond."
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:28 pm

.Q. wrote:I feel this is a really good introductory strategy for facing a striker.

When you use rhino guard, your mind is very simple. Your opponent tries to punch your head, your big fist (rhino guard guard) also try to punch to his face.

Since

- your head is hidden behind your guard, you have no fear.
- his head is not well protected, he will have fear.

The moment that your arms make any contact, the moment that clinching game start right at that moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N88aDjS ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:42 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I mean that's great for head on engagement but not what I'm talking about here.

So you have rhino gaurd, I have cross hands. My right arm shoots up, out, down, in, making contact with your right arm and attaching, pulling it down and towards me while the left hand follows a similar Arc to strike.

The attack comes in at an angle outside the zombie arms so they aren't relevant. The strike from the second hand would land before they even split.

I have difficult to picture your strategy. Could you put up a clip to explain it?

I already gave "clips, videos and explanations picturing this strategy" a couple posts above, along with the other posters in this thread:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:You talk about fast, explosive, good timing, and moving skills. It all has to do with individual's training which is difficult to be applied for people with less MA training.

I try to use different approach which may not have anything to do with individual's MA skill/ability. I want to look at what make a punch to be effective.

1. space - you need space to generate your punching speed and power.
2. path - you need a clear path for your punch to travel.
3. target - you need a clear target to punch.

If I try not to give you 1, 2, and 3, your punch won't be effective. In order for me to do that, I need to

1. extend my arms in front of your face. This not only can block your vision, it also squeeze your space.
2. put my arms in your striking path. When you punch, you fists have to deal with my arms first before it can reach to my face.
3. hide my head behind my arms and between my shoulders.

My "rhino guard" can help me to achieve that.

When an opponent enters your side door by taking a forward side step, then uppercuts between your extended arms and clasped hands:
1. He has "space to generate his punching speed and power." Your "extended arms" will not be "in front of his face" and "block his vision."
2. He has "a clear path for his punch to travel." His fist does not “have to deal with your arms first before it can reach to your face.”
3. He has a clear target to punch. “Hiding your head behind your arms and between your shoulders,” can expose your chin and face to uppercuts, block your vision, limit your mobility, shorten your reach and create a door handle to control your center.

Your "rhino guard helps you to achieve that," by extending your arms, clasping your hands and hiding/tucking your head.

Side door concept: If you are too close to a door and and try to open it, the door will hit you in the face. Instead if you side step forward while pulling the door open, you will enter the door without getting hit. At that point, you can punch (uppercut) the door without getting hit.

Following are examples of entering the side door.

@ 4:53, Robert talks about pulling the door open to break structure. Opponent is no longer facing you. So, you are able to take advantage and control the opponent's balance and center of gravity.

chusauli
Published on Mar 19, 2014

A basic introduction to Push, Pull, and Wedge Concepts in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Kuen. This was originally featured in Masters Magazine Winter 2011 Issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Os8O1rY8o8&t=4m53s

marvin8 wrote:George Foreman attempts pushing opponent's lead guard hand down (an) from outside of punching range following with an uppercut. Then later, finishes with an angled uppercut:
Image


mongoosefightsystem
Published on May 8, 2012

"Valley Girl Boxer" explains Olympic boxing strategy at Classic kickboxing gym in Pasadena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQLfDtDhwKI

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Super hypothetically, what happens if someone attacks the rhino guard with one hand to punch with the other hand? Is that a chance to arm wrap?

The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.

If A has entered B's side door or touches from outside the grappling range, the grappling game may not start. "The moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms," A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

"What's your opinion on this?"

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Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:45 pm

Does the rhino guard require a certain grip? Or can various grips be used?
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